Florida State Seminoles

[eCat]

Well, also because Evangelicals don't know Jesus and the majoriry of voting white women don't believe in Feminism.

what is the definition of feminism they are supposed to believe in?

The advocacy of women's rights, including agency over their body, equality in pay, freedom from sexism, misogyny and discrimination...at a high level.

so in order to be a feminist, you have be pro-choice?

[bluetick]

nice to see the protestors of this country wanting to allow more refugees from the religion who's women are covered and stoned to death if thought to be cheating

Listen to yourself. We're not importing women-stoning/Sharia Law...we're allowing some people in who want to get away from conditions that are unlivable. You know...refugees.

Except now we aren't - there's a ban. Or not a ban. Depending on who's in front of a mic at any given moment..

[Bklyn]

what is the definition of feminism they are supposed to believe in?

The advocacy of women's rights, including agency over their body, equality in pay, freedom from sexism, misogyny and discrimination...at a high level.

so in order to be a feminist, you have be pro-choice?

No. It's not disqualifying if you are Pro-Life, according to prominent Feminist activists. If you are, though, many Feminists will shout you down if you try to make Pro-Life a plank in any Feminism conversation. They never have been able to sort out that part of the movement.

[eCat]

No. It's not disqualifying if you are Pro-Life, according to prominent Feminist activists. If you are, though, many Feminists will shout you down if you try to make Pro-Life a plank in any Feminism conversation. They never have been able to sort out that part of the movement.

kind of self explanatory of "majority of voting white women don't believe in Feminism."

I would suggest they do believe in Feminism, their definition of it anyways. What really is the problem is liberal minded feminists can't stand the thought of a conservative woman being pro-life and taking a more pragmatic view of equality in pay /time off for child rearing. In their eyes that disqualifies them from believing in womens issues hence "white" conservative women don't believe in women's rights.

[Bklyn]

I guess, for me, based on the predominate platform of Feminism, Donald Trump's words and actions are textbook foils to every scenario they trot out. If I look at it like civil rights at the close of the 19th century, you have WEB DuBois who advocated for Blacks to be integrated into the political process. On the other side you had Booker T Washington who advocated against Blacks being an equal participant in the political process. DuBois had a more comprehensive economic vision for the emancipated slaves. Washington thought the emancipated slaves should prove their worthiness of American inclusion and focus on learning trades and agrarian pursuits. They both viewed themselves as civil rights proponents, but the majority of Dubois' vision won out...particularly relative to Washington's.

I think a single issue like abortion rights (which I wish Spacer was here, because the biggest issue with Roe v Wade is not abortion, per se. It is about - in my layman's term - equal protection under the law if women lose the right to make reasonable decisions over their own body that is incongruent with males) is not something that disqualifies someone from claiming Feminism. I do think that once you go through a few criteria of the platform being blown through, then the rationale of "pragmatism" loses its center and it just means that they are not Feminists. That's neither good nor bad...but it needs to be called what it is (not Feminism) and fully understood in that context if the people who think these principles are important want to see them move forward.

You have to know the terrain. I think people were deluding themselves for decades on this. It's good to have clear vision.

[bluetick]

Trump will have you know that he follows the work of Booker T Washington, who's done an amazing job and is being recognized more and more.

[youtube]zlai0BQarrc[/youtube]

[eCat]

I guess, for me, based on the predominate platform of Feminism, Donald Trump's words and actions are textbook foils to every scenario they trot out. If I look at it like civil rights at the close of the 19th century, you have WEB DuBois who advocated for Blacks to be integrated into the political process. On the other side you had Booker T Washington who advocated against Blacks being an equal participant in the political process. DuBois had a more comprehensive economic vision for the emancipated slaves. Washington thought the emancipated slaves should prove their worthiness of American inclusion and focus on learning trades and agrarian pursuits. They both viewed themselves as civil rights proponents, but the majority of Dubois' vision won out...particularly relative to Washington's.

I think a single issue like abortion rights (which I wish Spacer was here, because the biggest issue with Roe v Wade is not abortion, per se. It is about - in my layman's term - equal protection under the law if women lose the right to make reasonable decisions over their own body that is incongruent with males) is not something that disqualifies someone from claiming Feminism. I do think that once you go through a few criteria of the platform being blown through, then the rationale of "pragmatism" loses its center and it just means that they are not Feminists. That's neither good nor bad...but it needs to be called what it is (not Feminism) and fully understood in that context if the people who think these principles are important want to see them move forward.

You have to know the terrain. I think people were deluding themselves for decades on this. It's good to have clear vision.

it will never happen , but what happens if we take men out the equation to the point that its clear women are making the decision on abortion and they still decide to have a more pro-life agenda? That's a Hillary Clinton has a 98.7% chance of being the president moment - that its just assumed that if women were left with their own decisions on this they'd overwhelming vote pro-choice.

I guess what I'm saying is this idea of feminism is a set of ideas that either you agree or don't agree - but what we've seen over and over again, there aren't simply enough women out there who agree to the extent they are willing to take on all the other baggage that comes along with the feminist ideas.

So you have a collection of women who define the platform and then they position themselves to say that women who don't agree or don't vote accordingly aren't in tune with women's needs. Like its some kind of Uncle Tom situation. It would seem that enough time has passed to render a judgement on women's feminism and that its not a position (in its entirety) that will be adopted by a large percentage of women. That's not to say there aren't alot of women who support it but it won't be a 85% kinda thing - and to say you (as a feminist) represent women to the extent you pass judgement on who is independent and who is subordinate or ignorant, especially breaking down on race, is pretty arrogant.

[Bklyn]

I don't know if the view is about anyone being ignorant or subordinate. I guess there are some who speak in that heavy judgemental language, but it gets people nowhere. However, the data is the data. The data, along racial lines, tells a story. That story leads me (and I'm in the minority, I know) to say Feminism as a block doesn't exist. The majority of White women, as a block, rejected this set of principles as important in their decision-making process. It is what it is...but it ain't Feminism. It appears to me to be a racial subset, than a broad gender platform. The data supports it. It is empirical.

[eCat]

I don't know if the view is about anyone being ignorant or subordinate. I guess there are some who speak in that heavy judgemental language, but it gets people nowhere. However, the data is the data. The data, along racial lines, tells a story. That story leads me (and I'm in the minority, I know) to say Feminism as a block doesn't exist. The majority of White women, as a block, rejected this set of principles as important in their decision-making process. It is what it is...but it ain't Feminism. It appears to me to be a racial subset, than a broad gender platform. The data supports it. It is empirical.

I wonder how black christian women feel about it? Clearly I'm focused on abortion because while I realize equal pay is an issue, it affects every woman differently and misogyny, well - I just don't see that in the discussion that often. There are probably other issues but abortion is the heavy hitter.

I think abortion is an age thing. If you're a 15'ish to 35'ish female, chances are you are a heavy lean to be pro-choice

Then when you have a family and become somewhat stabilized meaning economics, religion/lack of, child rearing are all pretty focused - typically post 35'ish, then your views begin to harden on it, especially if you are a parent. Now clearly there would be many exceptions to that generalization.

So is it really the domain of white women (because honestly, every loud vocal feminist I've ever seen on TV has been a Gloria Steinem wannabe white woman) or is it really more economic/age related?

[Cletus]

Having kids and, more specifically, watching my wife go through a tough pregnancy totally flipped me from pro-life to pro-choice. A woman should have agency over her own body and should have control of the situation until the baby is born.

[sardis]

nice to see the protestors of this country wanting to allow more refugees from the religion who's women are covered and stoned to death if thought to be cheating

Listen to yourself. We're not importing women-stoning/Sharia Law...we're allowing some people in who want to get away from conditions that are unlivable. You know...refugees.

Except now we aren't - there's a ban. Or not a ban. Depending on who's in front of a mic at any given moment..

Tell that to people of England.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/688662 ... ing-street

[hedge]

"I think abortion is an age thing. If you're a 15'ish to 35'ish female, chances are you are a heavy lean to be pro-choice"

I'd throw most parents of teenage daughters in that group as well...

"In a penetrating essay, “The Conservative Case for Abortion,” published in 1995, Jerry Muller of the Catholic University of America phrased it like this: “The prime obstacle to the right-to-life movement is not feminism. It is the millions of more or less conservative middle-class parents who know that, if their teenage daughter were to become pregnant, they would advise her to get an abortion rather than marry out of necessity or go through the trauma of giving birth and then placing the child up for adoption.”"

[sardis]

Oh, and the hysteria over Trump invading Mexico? CNN says he only offered our troops to Mexico, not told him he was sending them in.

[eCat]

Having kids and, more specifically, watching my wife go through a tough pregnancy totally flipped me from pro-life to pro-choice. A woman should have agency over her own body and should have control of the situation until the baby is born.

go look at your child(ren) and then come back and tell me you'd be OK with them being aborted.

[Cletus]

I'm glad my son made it but there was a time during the pregnancy when my wife was getting really sick and ending it would have been a serious consideration. If she had continued to go south, I think we would have decided to abort him. It would have been a brutal decision but her life and health was more important. Thankfully, she never got to that point and he was born pretty early (because of the stress he was putting on my wife's body) and it all worked out. But, during that, it became clear to me that a woman should have complete control over that decision as awful and hard as it might be.

[hedge]

You're going to love whatever child or children you have. If a woman aborts a child she's not ready to have, and then goes on to have a fambly later, you could say that having the abortion allowed her to have the children she actually ended up with. If she hadn't had the abortion, yes, she probably would love that child, but she would in effect be aborting the future children that she in fact ends up with, b/c if she didn't have the earlier abortion, she would've never had the children that she had later...

[eCat]

You're going to love whatever child or children you have. If a woman aborts a child she's not ready to have, and then goes on to have a fambly later, you could say that having the abortion allowed her to have the children she actually ended up with. If she hadn't had the abortion, yes, she probably would love that child, but she would in effect be aborting the future children that she in fact ends up with, b/c if she didn't have the earlier abortion, she would've never had the children that she had later...

I consider myself pro-life - to the extent that if a life is life, then how can you have a caveat exempting incest and rape?

That said, I'm also a 50 year old man, and two things I don't think I have a right to have a position on is 1. telling a woman what she can or can't do with her body - abortion and prostitution, 2. sending someone elses son off to war thru a draft. So I'll never push those publicly

But I also think that after you have a child and understand that level of connection where you'd without hesitation give up your life to save theirs, you change your mind on abortion - clearly that doesn't hold true across the board with Cletus being an example. He saw the toll bearing a child had on his wife and feels differently.

I was thinking about if my daughter , who right now has crazy potential to do something significant with her life, got pregnant and how that would derail all she's worked so hard for. We've talked to her many times about not giving a man the power to change your life until you're done with college and are capable of balancing the rest of your life with a committed relationship - but I would let it be her decision and I would not express an opinion other than to let her know I'll be there whatever she chooses. (now what my very pro-choice wife does is a different story. I suspect she'd drive her there and punch any protesters in the face along the way)

I've also felt a strong position on abortion is lose/lose for the GOP but that's the baggage you get when you court the evangelicals.

[Dr. Nostron]

Having kids and, more specifically, watching my wife go through a tough pregnancy totally flipped me from pro-life to pro-choice. A woman should have agency over her own body and should have control of the situation until the baby is born.

See thats very interesting to me because that experience did the opposite for me - took me from pro-choice to pro-life

[hedge]

"after you have a child and understand that level of connection where you'd without hesitation give up your life to save theirs, you change your mind on abortion"

On the other side of the coin, I've been (how shall I say?) involved in a few abortions in my life. A couple were when I was way too young to even fathom having a child of my own and a couple others when I definitely could've swung it if it had happened. But even the earlier ones, if they'd been born (I would almost definitely been a grandfather by now), I'm sure with the help of our parents we could've made it happen. So as someone whose never had kids, I do sometimes wonder about it and regret the fact that I've never had my own children. Probably lucky for them that I didn't...

[sardis]

I wish I was around back then to help your mother pay for an abortion.