Florida State Seminoles

[aTm]

My personal distaste for when these things comes up, has almost nothing to do with other races, and deals with what I see white people saying. Academics at universities, celebrities, and trust fund millennials trying to find ways to spend their time. This is where I hear about "white privelege" from almost exclusively (and when I hear it from people like BLM etc, it doesn't really bother me, because I think they are right to at least some extent). But, IMO, all of these fucking white bread assholes, with more time than they know what to do with, who mostly grew up in 95% white upper-middle class suburbs can look in their own fucking mirror and work out their guilt for having life too easy without thinking I need to feel it too, my background is not the same as theirs (though urban as opposed to eCat's rural).

I think (well, I know) you're misplaced in your view, but I don't think you're budging (much like tranny urinals) no matter the data and research available across academia. So, okay...

Academia, data, and research I think are all things that are looked at with severe mistrust by everyone working class and below, especially when such things begin to infringe upon politics like many of the social sciences do. The politics team building is even so strong that the "Go Red team" guys with advanced degrees from a university like A&M (they owe their fancy engineering jobs to public money, big government, big academia) are extremely anti-academia. They want to purge everybody thats not STEM and other ridiculous notions.

[DooKSucks]

FDR is known for all his programs and legislation he got thru, but he had a bunch of failures as well. He tried to upend the Supreme Court, he tried to implement price freezes, among other things - and his failures are just footnotes to History. People remember him for what he got done.

Now I'm not going to get into the Trump is no FDR thing. I'm just saying he said alot of things that people thought was window dressing to get elected. Turns out its not.

I don't support everything he's done, but I support alot of it.

FDR's legacy has been castigated continuously by serious historians and politicos over the court packing skullduggery and the foolishness of the '38 primaries. He killed his domestic agenda with those two actions (and we all know he remained relevant because of Europe and the Japanese). Hell, his own VP turned on him. It didn't matter in electoral terms because he was so popular, but the court packing is no less scary than the skullduggery being perpetrated by this President and the retinue of sycophantic fools who surround him.

[DooKSucks]

It's not the volume, it's the quality.

If the 50 do great things, he'll be remembered as complicated but beneficially influential. If the 50 causes massive layoffs, make us lose our standing as a global and economic leader, create a problem with our current position as a currency safe haven or leads to problematic global skirmishes or domestic events...then his legacy will be worse than Bush 43's.

Clinton made me appreciate Daddy Bush, Little Bush made me appreciate Clinton. And while I still wish painful death on Karl Rove and Dick Cheney, I do see Bush with kinder eyes thanks to Obama. Legacy is a funny thing with presidents. You and I have vastly different opinions on Obama now. Will it even out in 15 years? Alot of it will depend on the guys that follow.

Would I vote for either Bush if the Democrats put forth a competent candidate who governed from the center / center-left? No, but I respect HW and W. I will forever believe both meant well and did their best. In fact, HW made a lot of tough choices that had to be made, and I think history will treat his tenure kindly. W choose unwisely. Trump is just a damn maniac.

[eCat]

I think its important to note - Generation X is post civil rights.

I don't think is a coincidence that Obama is the first Generation X president.

[Saint]

Saying that Obama is the president so he hasn't been held back by racism sort of misses the point. There is still a propensity in this country to cast aspersions based on race (best case) and you can't ignore it. On the other hand, I do agree with eCat that there are plenty of opportunities for individuals today that didn't exist before.

Still, I think Obama, as a man who is half black, would have done a disservice to African-Americans and their history here had he not used his position to point out that racism still exists and we need to do better. I don't recall him pushing for any laws to that end, however. His plea was personal.

[hedge]

I don't feel guilty about my white privilege, but I know I've benefited from it (and from economic privilege, even though my fambly was middle class). I remember Spacer posting in here one time (can't recall what it was in reference to, probably some story about some group's encounter with the police) something along the lines of "Those dudes better be glad they weren't black in that situation", and I responded "Well come on, that would be true under any circumstances." A jest, yes, but how many white people in this country really feel that way? A hell of a lot, I would guess, like >99%. That's proof of white privilege...

At the same time, I do see where eCat is coming from, esp. coming up hardscrabble himself and making such a success of things (golf clap). And I do think that that kind of attitude ("if I can do it, anybody can") is ultimately more productive in general in moving forward than dwelling on the past, even while still recognizing and acknowledging those inequities and outright injustices. I have to say, though, I get a sense from eCat's posts that he thinks racism is a thing of the past or at least doesn't really apply these days. I can't think you really believe that, but it does come across like that in some of your posts. But come on, dude, you're from Kentucky. You know damn good and well that plenty of people are racist as shit.

When I was in prison, there was this young dude from Kentucky in there, genuine white trash (I remember he had a goiter on his neck), he told more than once that the county he was from didn't have any niggers living there and that niggers knew better than to even drive thru it. Even being from eastern NC, I was a bit taken aback by this, but I know plenty of people around here who more or less feel the same, and there are plenty of others all over the South and really everywhere in this country, and who think nothing of using the word nigger pejoratively in conversation. Now then, that doesn't necessarily make them evil or even bad people, they may be perfectly pleasant and upstanding in other aspects of their lives, but they're still racists.

Also, I don't think that people like my friend from prison are in any position of authority to hold anyone back (well, maybe hold them back from crossing the county line), but the idea that it is Obama who pushed some kind of racial agenda is ludicrous. It was way past time that somebody addressed some of these issues, and as the first black president he was undoubtedly the proper person to do it. Personally I felt his comments on the racial problems in America were (hate to use this term) fair and balanced for the most part, giving consideration to both sides of the story in every case, which was his style in most situations. Certainly I never thought of him as divisive on race, but I guess everybody hears what they want to hear...

[eCat]

Saying that Obama is the president so he hasn't been held back by racism sort of misses the point. There is still a propensity in this country to cast aspersions based on race (best case) and you can't ignore it. On the other hand, I do agree with eCat that there are plenty of opportunities for individuals today that didn't exist before.

Still, I think Obama, as a man who is half black, would have done a disservice to African-Americans and their history here had he not used his position to point out that racism still exists and we need to do better. I don't recall him pushing for any laws to that end, however. His plea was personal.

he pushed for the biggest law of them all
see: Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor

[SnoodGator]

Again, I suggest you all read Hillbilly Elegy. Its a quick read and really useful IMHO on this topic.

[eCat]

At the same time, I do see where eCat is coming from, esp. coming up hardscrabble himself and making such a success of things (golf clap). And I do think that that kind of attitude ("if I can do it, anybody can") is ultimately more productive in general in moving forward than dwelling on the past, even while still recognizing and acknowledging those inequities and outright injustices. I have to say, though, I get a sense from eCat's posts that he thinks racism is a thing of the past or at least doesn't really apply these days. I can't think you really believe that, but it does come across like that in some of your posts. But come on, dude, you're from Kentucky. You know damn good and well that plenty of people are racist as shit.

its not that I don't think it exists. But have you ever met anyone in the Klan? If by chance you did , did they strike you as someone who belonged to a group that was well organized, well funded and capable of influencing even local politics? I never saw the klan, I never knew of the klan and never heard about the klan unless it was on TV. That was 35 years ago. I can't imagine there has been some resurgence I'm not aware of. Yea I heard nigger thrown around from time to time, but I also heard white trash. The people around me were far more harsh at the local level on worthless white trash that didn't work or were criminals than any concerns about what black people were doing. But then again I didn't live in Memphis or Chicago or Watts.

More to the point, do I hear it now and the answer is no - not ever. I remember my son got in a fight with a black kid at school when he was in 5th grade. The black kid ending up telling the principle my son called him the n-word. I went down there , met with the principle, heard her side of the story and told her I'd talk to my son when I got him home.

On the way home my son asked me - Dad, whats the n-word? He'd never heard it before, but it didn't stop the African American kid from it being his go to move/get out of jail free card - in the 5th grade.

My point is there isn't some unwritten code or set of rules that white people follow. Matter of fact, my company would love to hire quite a few black engineers and pay them damn well to do it. We can't find them so we hire Indians and Asians because that's who is graduating with engineering degrees. And then they buy the middle class homes in our community and drive the Toyota Camry's. They built a cricket field in our local park last year. We got an Indian restaurant opening sometime soon (the sign is up anyways).

I defy anyone to tell me a young black male or female can't get a high school public education, go to a community college and then go on to a 4 year degree with minimal debt by today's standards and get a good paying job in science or engineering.

Economics is the racism of this country - and the opportunity to pull yourself out of it is there just like it was/is for any impoverished white person.

[eCat]

Again, I suggest you all read Hillbilly Elegy. Its a quick read and really useful IMHO on this topic.

Night comes to the Cumberland by Harry Caudill - 1962.

https://archive.org/stream/nightcomesto ... d_djvu.txt


In the 1960 presedential primary, Senator — now President —
John F. Kennedy campaigned across West Virginia and saw at first
hand the conditions existing in the coalfields of that state. The spec-
tacle of mass misery and of mass surrender to it appears to have
deeply impressed him, because in the general election campaign he
repeatedly referred to the hunger and depression he had seen there.
West Virginia is not far from the great population centers of the east-
ern seaboard where Mr. Kennedy grew up, and it may be cause for
wonder that this inquisitive and well-educated young man could
have been unaware of the deplorable situation in which the West
Virginia highlander finds himself in the seventh decade of the twen-
tieth century. However, the fact is that a million Americans in the
Southern Appalachians live today in conditions of squalor, ignorance
and ill health which could scarcely be equaled in Europe or Japan or,
perhaps, in parts of mainland Asia. For example, the 1960 census dis-
closed that 19 per cent of the adult population of the Southern
mountain region can neither read nor write. Bell County, Kentucky,
with a total population of 35,336, was found to contain 17,213 citizens
twenty-five years of age or older. Of these adults 1018 had never
attended school at all. In addition, 3884 had attended school four
years or less. Thus, 4902 persons — substantially more than 25 per
cent — were classified, for all practical purposes, as functional illiter-
ates.

-----------

I'm willing to bet his book is an updated version that includes heroin and meth.

[eCat]

At the same time, I do see where eCat is coming from, esp. coming up hardscrabble himself and making such a success of things (golf clap).

Saint said something similar. I have a white collar job (at least today I do). From my upbringing that may be beating the odds but lets not turn it into I'm am Elmer J. Fudd Millionaire, I own a mansion and a yacht.

[aTm]

[youtube]AGFev2BmnhE[/youtube]

[hedge]

At the same time, I do see where eCat is coming from, esp. coming up hardscrabble himself and making such a success of things (golf clap).

Saint said something similar. I have a white collar job (at least today I do). From my upbringing that may be beating the odds but lets not turn it into I'm am Elmer J. Fudd Millionaire, I own a mansion and a yacht.

Don't sell yourself short. You are very much an Elmer Fudd...

[Saint]

My point is there isn't some unwritten code or set of rules that white people follow. Matter of fact, my company would love to hire quite a few black engineers and pay them damn well to do it. We can't find them so we hire Indians and Asians because that's who is graduating with engineering degrees. And then they buy the middle class homes in our community and drive the Toyota Camry's. They built a cricket field in our local park last year. We got an Indian restaurant opening sometime soon (the sign is up anyways).

I defy anyone to tell me a young black male or female can't get a high school public education, go to a community college and then go on to a 4 year degree with minimal debt by today's standards and get a good paying job in science or engineering.

Economics is the racism of this country - and the opportunity to pull yourself out of it is there just like it was/is for any impoverished white person.

I know, I used to say the same thing: It ain't easy being white either. But I've come to learn that, for most black people, it's harder than being white. But there's a lot of reasons that African-Americans struggle economically today and there's no simple answer, even acknowledging racism exists. I just don't pretend that it doesn't and am aware that my life is easier because I'm a white male.

And as far as your yacht and mansion, you don't have to have that to be rich. I've never been poorer than I am now because I work in a dying industry and make shit money, my wife doesn't work because she homeschools our son and we live in an old house that decided to start falling apart all at once and, as I've said, shit cost too damn much. Obviously, most of my situation is my fault but if any of our parents had to pay what this generation is paying for health insurance, mortgate, car payments, etc., we would have all been much poorer as kids. I always thought we were poor when I was growing up but now, as a 51-year-old, that I've gone without food in our house for a couple of days because I ran out of money between paychecks, I have a new perspective of what "rich" is.

[eCat]

My point is there isn't some unwritten code or set of rules that white people follow. Matter of fact, my company would love to hire quite a few black engineers and pay them damn well to do it. We can't find them so we hire Indians and Asians because that's who is graduating with engineering degrees. And then they buy the middle class homes in our community and drive the Toyota Camry's. They built a cricket field in our local park last year. We got an Indian restaurant opening sometime soon (the sign is up anyways).

I defy anyone to tell me a young black male or female can't get a high school public education, go to a community college and then go on to a 4 year degree with minimal debt by today's standards and get a good paying job in science or engineering.

Economics is the racism of this country - and the opportunity to pull yourself out of it is there just like it was/is for any impoverished white person.

I know, I used to say the same thing: It ain't easy being white either. But I've come to learn that, for most black people, it's harder than being white. But there's a lot of reasons that African-Americans struggle economically today and there's no simple answer, even acknowledging racism exists. I just don't pretend that it doesn't and am aware that my life is easier because I'm a white male.

And as far as your yacht and mansion, you don't have to have that to be rich. I've never been poorer than I am now because I work in a dying industry and make shit money, my wife doesn't work because she homeschools our son and we live in an old house that decided to start falling apart all at once and, as I've said, shit cost too damn much. Obviously, most of my situation is my fault but if any of our parents had to pay what this generation is paying for health insurance, mortgate, car payments, etc., we would have all been much poorer as kids. I always thought we were poor when I was growing up but now, as a 51-year-old, that I've gone without food in our house for a couple of days because I ran out of money between paychecks, I have a new perspective of what "rich" is.

I know it would be incredibly hard for you at 51 with a young child but what about going back to college or a trade?

[Saint]

I just need to get out of the business I'm in, which demands many hours and pays very little. I keep saying that I should just take a week off work and get my shit together and find a new job, although I'd have to travel because there ain't really shit here. I just haven't really spent that much time looking for a new job, to be honest. I can't say that I haven't been able to find one.

[hedge]

"my wife doesn't work"

That's your main problem right there. Well, that and the $10 a gallon bootleg milk that she sends you all over the county to fetch, which adds another $5 per gallon (at least) in fuel costs. Fucking A, why even get married if the wife ain't gonna work, unless you're making enough yourself where it's not even close to being an issue, which doesn't seem to be the case here...

[hedge]

Logan has offered to pay you to write a hagiography of his life and work, but you won't do it...

[eCat]

"my wife doesn't work"

That's your main problem right there. Well, that and the $10 a gallon bootleg milk that she sends you all over the county to fetch, which adds another $5 per gallon (at least) in fuel costs. Fucking A, why even get married if the wife ain't gonna work, unless you're making enough yourself where it's not even close to being an issue, which doesn't seem to be the case here...

we did the same thing. My wife didn't work and we were buying organic milk for the kids - something like $4.99 for a half gallon. Once the daughter turned 3 I said fuck this, she drinks hormones like the rest of us.

[Bklyn]

1. A black male with a college education has the same chance of getting employment as a white high school drop out. (https://thinkprogress.org/a-black-colle ... .ss5bzvssr)

2. Having a "black" name makes it 50% less likely to get an interview (http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/st ... get-respo/)

3. Being black makes your interaction with law and justice heightened (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... ating.html)

I can keep going, but i have a meeting. I can go through home buying disparities wrt race, credit and capital and impacts on that generationally. It's all real.