Florida State Seminoles

[Bklyn]

It's not the volume, it's the quality.

If the 50 do great things, he'll be remembered as complicated but beneficially influential. If the 50 causes massive layoffs, make us lose our standing as a global and economic leader, create a problem with our current position as a currency safe haven or leads to problematic global skirmishes or domestic events...then his legacy will be worse than Bush 43's.

[eCat]

It's not the volume, it's the quality.

If the 50 do great things, he'll be remembered as complicated but beneficially influential. If the 50 causes massive layoffs, make us lose our standing as a global and economic leader, create a problem with our current position as a currency safe haven or leads to problematic global skirmishes or domestic events...then his legacy will be worse than Bush 43's.

Clinton made me appreciate Daddy Bush, Little Bush made me appreciate Clinton. And while I still wish painful death on Karl Rove and Dick Cheney, I do see Bush with kinder eyes thanks to Obama. Legacy is a funny thing with presidents. You and I have vastly different opinions on Obama now. Will it even out in 15 years? Alot of it will depend on the guys that follow.

[Bklyn]

You and I have vastly different opinions on Obama now. Will it even out in 15 years? Alot of it will depend on the guys that follow.

The guys that follow and how you and yours fare after that time.

[Bklyn]

You are right. History remembers what you got right...or got massively wrong...at the end of the day. All the other stuff fades away. You just need to make your triumphs eclipse your massive dumps...and you need to make sure the parties that keep the records, sing the songs and write the history see it the same way.

he'll try 200 things and get blocked, sued or ignored on 150 of them.

That said I don't have any reason to believe that Trump is going to do anything directly to African Americans...unless they are muslim. They might disappear and reappear in a prison somewhere in Nicarauga.

The way Trump sees it (and alot of other Americans) he's bringing back jobs that need to be filled - and African Americans will benefit from like anyone else.

I don't think he thinks about African Americans one way or the other. The very wealthy in this country, since Reconstruction, rarely ever do. It's poor whites that scare me.

[eCat]

You and I have vastly different opinions on Obama now. Will it even out in 15 years? Alot of it will depend on the guys that follow.

The guys that follow and how you and yours fare after that time.

true, my life didn't suck during the 2008 financial crisis (and I feel for those that did). I didn't feel financial stagnation until Obama.

[Saint]

That's because you're a middle class dude in a flyover state, far from the front lines.

Trump seems like a lunatic and that may unhinge whatever sounds policies he's cooking up. He's still got a long ways to go to match the sheer darkness of Dick Cheney though. I can't speak for Nixon because I was too young to get an accurate read on him but Cheney is the still the bull goose goon of American politics in my lifetime.

[Bklyn]

I've been on a good run since 2003, across the board. So, I've been blessed.

I guess I give Obama more credit than you (and even those last 6 mos of Bush's Presidency) because I watched, real time, the threat of financial armageddon we were facing. It was one of the most illuminating times in my professional life. I learned more then, just because shit was exploding all around, than I had learned in 10+ years prior. Everything was held by sinew during that time. Maybe Obama could have pulled us through it better. I just know we did better than Europe with it.

That's the other thing that has "let it blow" give me pause. From where I sat, if that sentiment leads to what we had in 2008/9, then the aftermath is damn-near dystopian.

[Saint]

Nothing that has been done in the Oval Office has largely affected me at any time in my life, other than Reagan raising the drinking age on me twice just before I became of age (burn in hell, Ronnie). I would think that is true of a vast majority of Americans. People get too worked up over national politics when their lives are far more affected by local and state policies.

[eCat]

You are right. History remembers what you got right...or got massively wrong...at the end of the day. All the other stuff fades away. You just need to make your triumphs eclipse your massive dumps...and you need to make sure the parties that keep the records, sing the songs and write the history see it the same way.

he'll try 200 things and get blocked, sued or ignored on 150 of them.

That said I don't have any reason to believe that Trump is going to do anything directly to African Americans...unless they are muslim. They might disappear and reappear in a prison somewhere in Nicarauga.

The way Trump sees it (and alot of other Americans) he's bringing back jobs that need to be filled - and African Americans will benefit from like anyone else.

I don't think he thinks about African Americans one way or the other. The very wealthy in this country, since Reconstruction, rarely ever do. It's poor whites that scare me.

lot of ways to respond to that, but its hard to get past how big of a role Obama has played in the racial divide we are currently experiencing in this country. There is a percentage, a very small percentage, that do see Trump as a pendulum swing to a less racially driven national conversation.Of course African Americans and Latinos don't see it that way. I think its more than just race though. Those poor whites - which I will expand to non-college educated whites never felt Obama included them as part of his agenda to move the country forward... and there was no shortage of emboldened feminists, gays, African Americans, Latinos and white liberals who went out of their way to let them know they weren't part of their vision for America.

[eCat]

I've been on a good run since 2003, across the board. So, I've been blessed.

I guess I give Obama more credit than you (and even those last 6 mos of Bush's Presidency) because I watched, real time, the threat of financial armageddon we were facing. It was one of the most illuminating times in my professional life. I learned more then, just because shit was exploding all around, than I had learned in 10+ years prior. Everything was held by sinew during that time. Maybe Obama could have pulled us through it better. I just know we did better than Europe with it.

That's the other thing that has "let it blow" give me pause. From where I sat, if that sentiment leads to what we had in 2008/9, then the aftermath is damn-near dystopian.

its hard for me to give Obama credit because his (and Congress ) solution was to just print money. From 2008 - 2010 the debt increased by 3 trillion. From 2010 - 2013, another 3 trillion.

During Obama's presidency we spent more than $25K per person in debt (not actual budget, just debt). How do you think your financial fortunes would be Saint if the federal government gave you $9300 for your family of 3 each year for 8 years? So how do you feel about instead, theorectically, you *owe* 75K in just the debt during the Obama presidency (along with congress) on top of the 36K you owe for the Iraq and Afghan wars

[Bklyn]

lot of ways to respond to that, but its hard to get past how big of a role Obama has played in the racial divide we are currently experiencing in this country. There is a percentage, a very small percentage, that do see Trump as a pendulum swing to a less racially driven national conversation.Of course African Americans and Latinos don't see it that way. I think its more than just race though. Those poor whites - which I will expand to non-college educated whites never felt Obama included them as part of his agenda to move the country forward... and there was no shortage of emboldened feminists, gays, African Americans, Latinos and white liberals who went out of their way to let them know they weren't part of their vision for America.

Meh. Chicken or egg.

The racial issues weren't exacerbated by Obama, IMO. His presidency did bring race more to the media forefront, though. I will say that. Obama did not shoot Trayvon, Jordan Davis, Jordan Crawford III, Tamir Rice, Sandra Bland, Eric Garner...

The racial dynamics of this country haven't really changed in my lifetime, IMO. I do think they are talked about more.

I put that more on social media than who the President is.

Whites are mad, though, because the narratives of privilege (to aTm's post) and discrimination seems to be thrown in their face all the time (from what I understand). Oftentimes they (seem to) feel like it's thrown in their face unwarranted. While on the other side, minorities (from what I understand) feel it's about time whites knew how this world is structured.

[eCat]

lot of ways to respond to that, but its hard to get past how big of a role Obama has played in the racial divide we are currently experiencing in this country. There is a percentage, a very small percentage, that do see Trump as a pendulum swing to a less racially driven national conversation.Of course African Americans and Latinos don't see it that way. I think its more than just race though. Those poor whites - which I will expand to non-college educated whites never felt Obama included them as part of his agenda to move the country forward... and there was no shortage of emboldened feminists, gays, African Americans, Latinos and white liberals who went out of their way to let them know they weren't part of their vision for America.

Meh. Chicken or egg.

The racial issues weren't exacerbated by Obama, IMO. His presidency did bring race more to the media forefront, though. I will say that. Obama did not shoot Trayvon, Jordan Davis, Jordan Crawford III, Tamir Rice, Sandra Bland, Eric Garner...

The racial dynamics of this country haven't really changed in my lifetime, IMO. I do think they are talked about more.

I put that more on social media than who the President is.

Whites are mad, though, because the narratives of privilege (to aTm's post) and discrimination seems to be thrown in their face all the time (from what I understand). Oftentimes they (seem to) feel like it's thrown in their face unwarranted. While on the other side, minorities (from what I understand) feel it's about time whites knew how this world is structured.

yea but I don't know who they are talking to.

Without to much drama here, this is how my world was structured. I'm one generation removed from share croppers. My mother wore flour sacks as dresses because they couldn't afford clothes as a child, my dad and his 4 brothers picked cotton in the summers before they were teens. Mom got her G.E.D. when she was 47. My sister was the first in our family to go to college (she got a scholarship) and I was the second to graduate. As I've said, its hard to hear about white privilege. We certainly didn't seem privileged. I would have gladly accepted a $30K a year job at a factory when I got out of high school for being white, but no one offered. I suspect there are many, many whites with similar stories. And the past 8 years they had to listen to white privilege accusations while seeing an African American president on TV.

[Bklyn]

You don't fundamentally understand white privilege, then. It's not anecdotal. It is systemic and it is quantifiable. I'm actually working...and this was a good diversion, but I gotta put in a good 2 more hours so I can run in 3rd gear tomorrow. I just can't walk through this one. Shame my Western Conference WX crew didn't travel here. There are a few guys that would do an excellent job breaking it all down. As the Franklin in this Peanuts strip, I don't have the time for this one.

[eCat]

You don't fundamentally understand white privilege, then. It's not anecdotal. It is systemic and it is quantifiable. I'm actually working...and this was a good diversion, but I gotta put in a good 2 more hours so I can run in 3rd gear tomorrow.

its absolutely anecdotal if I'm being held to it. As I said, there are many whites with similar stories. The issue isn't about privilege, its about opportunity. And thats when whites start talking about how the world is structured.

[Bklyn]

Anything can be anecdotal...but my point is anecdotes don't qualify as confirmation of a trend or an enduring structure. Really, (to my edited post above) I wish I could pass this baton because it is a very important conversation. I just can't roll with it tonight. I still got your long post from this weekend in the back of my head to dig through. Can't do this one.

[Saint]

Your life would have been worse if you were black. That's pretty much white privilege in a nutshell. Your story is similar to mine, except you've done a better job of earning, saving and investing money. My parents grew up as poor anyone else in the Depression. My dad dropped out of high school to run the farm (where they were tenants) when a tractor rolled over on my granddaddy. He went into the army and spent 30 years working for Orkin. My mom put herself through nursing school and even helped her parents buy a home in Baltimore with her money. I was taught to work hard, save money and do as much for myself and others as I can. I definitely work hard but haven't been great on the other stuff.

Yet, I know that there are plenty of ways my life would have been much rougher if I were black. So I don't sweat the notion of white privilege but I'm not beating myself up over it either.

I never saw Obama as being racially divisive, maybe because I agree that cops are shooting first way too often. He seems to have wanted to help all folks, not just black people. I live in a cauldron of ignorance, fear and the product of the two: racism. Most of the people claiming Obama was racially divisive, the ones I've known for a long time around where I live, do so because they are racist.

I grew up in a home with a father fussing about "niggers" but my mother (who was from Missouri & Baltimore) bristled and made sure my sister and I knew it was not acceptable to not only use that word but think of black people as inferior. As my old man hit his 70s, he mellowed considerably but there's no question he was a racist (like so many whites were) for much of his life, so I know one when I see one around here. People have different perspectives but it's hard for me to think that racism isn't part of the reason that people don't like Obama. I certainly think he could have been a better president but I've never thought he promoted racial division. I just think he was a bit of a sell-out, like all the other presidents in my lifetime.

[eCat]

Your life would have been worse if you were black. That's pretty much white privilege in a nutshell. Your story is similar to mine, except you've done a better job of earning, saving and investing money. My parents grew up as poor anyone else in the Depression. My dad dropped out of high school to run the farm (where they were tenants) when a tractor rolled over on my granddaddy. He went into the army and spent 30 years working for Orkin. My mom put herself through nursing school and even helped her parents buy a home in Baltimore with her money. I was taught to work hard, save money and do as much for myself and others as I can. I definitely work hard but haven't been great on the other stuff.

Yet, I know that there are plenty of ways my life would have been much rougher if I were black. So I don't sweat the notion of white privilege but I'm not beating myself up over it either.

I never saw Obama as being racially divisive, maybe because I agree that cops are shooting first way too often. He seems to have wanted to help all folks, not just black people. I live in a cauldron of ignorance, fear and the product of the two: racism. Most of the people claiming Obama was racially divisive, the ones I've known for a long time around where I live, do so because they are racist.

I grew up in a home with a father fussing about "niggers" but my mother (who was from Missouri & Baltimore) bristled and made sure my sister and I knew it was not acceptable to not only use that word but think of black people as inferior. As my old man hit his 70s, he mellowed considerably but there's no question he was a racist (like so many whites were) for much of his life, so I know one when I see one around here. People have different perspectives but it's hard for me to think that racism isn't part of the reason that people don't like Obama. I certainly think he could have been a better president but I've never thought he promoted racial division. I just think he was a bit of a sell-out, like all the other presidents in my lifetime.

Racism is a big part of why people don't like Obama - because he dived into race as president. He gave one speech about Treyvon Martin could be his son. Then after they found the cop not guilty in the Michael Brown verdict (as did Obama's own justice department), Obama gave a speech about how he'd suffered from racism. I'm sorry - the man is a product of Harvard, a senator from Illinois and THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES

WTF, how did racism hold him back? If he was white he'd would have been conqueror of the Universe? Is his success anecdotal? Or did Obama take advantage of the opportunities presented to him, the same opportunities afforded every person in this country?

He suffered the indignity of hearing a car door lock as he walked by? Here is the hypocrisy of his claims. What he doesn't say if he was in his car, he'd lock his doors too. Maybe that's an overreaction in the case of seeing a man like Obama, a clean cut well dressed African American.

Lets see how Obama would react if Omar walked by with Michelle, Sasha and Melia in the car. He'd react the same way anyone else would react who felt their safety was at risk, the same way anyone would react if they saw some tatted up Aryan Nation guy walking down the street, or homeless man having an animated conversation with no one in particular.

All of us have to live with the products of our environment, our upbringing. the bias of people we interact with - our lives are shaped, our destiny's defined by those influences we cannot control. But at the end of the day, every person in this country - every legal citizen of this country, has the opportunity to get a free basic education, to join the military, to go to college, to learn a trade, to freely move, to find a culture and segment of society that affords them the best quality of life possible. Saint you moved from your upbringing, North Carolina to strike out in life, I left my hometown where my family had lived since pre-civil war because there was no opportunity for me there. If I had stayed I probably would have married into the same cycle of poverty my own family was facing and be bitter about my lot in life looking to blame someone else.

Yes there are going to be people that don't like the way you look, talk, dislike you for where you are from or what you're trying to accomplish. That's not limited to being African American.

If this was 1963, I'd be saying a different thing, but this is 2017. We're not going to legislate the existing bias out. We all have a profile, some are easier to live with than others, but in 2017 America, our profiles don't stop us from taking advantage of the opportunities this country affords us.

[BigRedMan]

"Between January and November of 2016, $24.6 billion flowed back to the pockets of Mexicans from friends and relatives living overseas, according to Mexico's central bank."

Yeah....overseas.......

[hedge]

Almost the same ratio as the McDonald's lost in that deal with Kroc...

[Bklyn]

eCat

Your take on racism, how it is applied, where it shows up and its impact on people of color (across all economic spectrum) is fascinating. Interesting...I'm just guessing your take is how many (if not most) white Americans view it.

I think (well, I know) you're misplaced in your view, but I don't think you're budging (much like tranny urinals) no matter the data and research available across academia. So, okay...