Florida State Seminoles

[Bklyn]

The country might be going down the shitter but man how much more entertaining could it get?

The administration hasn't even started yet. Insane and I hope it just stays amusing.

[Cletus]

What does it mean when the president tells a media outlet that they will "suffer the consequences" of publishing a report that he doesn't like as Trump did today to Buzzfeed? That doesn't sound especially constitutional.

[bluetick]

Republican Sen. John Chafee of Rhode Island introduced legislation into the Senate, the Health Equity and Access Reform Today (HEART) bill, with co-sponsors Minority leader Bob Dole, R-Kan., Sens. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, Richard Lugar, R-Ind., and many others. There were also two Democratic co-sponsors. Among other features, the Chafee bill included:

An individual mandate;

Creation of purchasing pools;

Standardized benefits;

Vouchers for the poor to buy insurance; and

A ban on denying coverage based on a pre-existing condition.

"You would find a great deal of similarity to provisions in the Affordable Care Act," Sheila Burke, Dole's chief of staff in 1993 said. "The guys were way ahead of the times. Different crowd, different time, suffice it to say."

[bluetick]

1989, Stuart Butler, Heritage Foundation Director of Domestic Policy Research:

Many states now require passengers in automobiles to wear seatbelts for their own protection. Many others require anybody driving a car to have liability insurance. But neither the federal government nor any state requires all households to protect themselves from the potentially catastrophic costs of a serious accident or illness. Under the Heritage plan, there would be such a requirement.

[Saint]

They took this liberal idea that access to health care is a right

It's the first part of the whole life, liberty and pursuit of happiness thing. Too many people believe that just because they can afford health care, everyone who can't doesn't deserve it. Besides the clear evidence that not having affordable health care undermines our economic stability, it's going to lead to loss of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for those who can afford it. Like I've said, ISIS isn't even close to being the biggest problem this country has if we continue to let this mentality flourish.

[eCat]

They took this liberal idea that access to health care is a right

It's the first part of the whole life, liberty and pursuit of happiness thing. Too many people believe that just because they can afford health care, everyone who can't doesn't deserve it. Besides the clear evidence that not having affordable health care undermines our economic stability, it's going to lead to loss of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for those who can afford it. Like I've said, ISIS isn't even close to being the biggest problem this country has if we continue to let this mentality flourish.

you know I don't really even have a problem with that - as the richest nation in the world, if we want to provide health care to our citizens then lets do it

but this idea that I have to not only pay more to provide for others while at the same time being forced to accept a lesser quality version of health care that my company can provide is bullshit. If you want to tax healthcare to provide for the impoverished and chronically ill fine, lets do that in a meaningful and solvent way but changing the nature of health care in the market place to the detriment of millions of Americans to help a much smaller percentage is absurd. They should have just lowered the requirements to receive medicare/medicaid.

By threatening to tax cadillac plans, pushing for a high deductible health care model subsidizing the poor and creating mandates that burdened insurance providers, Obamacare essentially set me back 4 years of pay increases. That's a pretty serious hit for a government enacted program. Are you willing to take a pay cut to pay for health care of other people? If you're truly middle class, part of your decision process about your income includes what health care if any is provided at your workplace. Its part of your overall income package. And it seems to me few liberals think like this when it comes to supporting this legislation - all the focus is providing for the poor and chronically ill while ignoring the major upheaval they've just enacted on the majority of the heartland.

And I know I'm not alone in this - some people may have more of a hit - some less but there is a very significant number of people out there who were not happy with rising health care costs pre 2008 but absorbed it incrementally to keep the high quality care they had - or had the option to scale down into a catastrophic plan that was affordable.

[Saint]

Well, I'll agree that the plan just was too problematic to be effective in the way it was intended. There's too much snipping around the hemline and ignoring the fact that they're trying to fit a 400-pound ass into a size 34 waist pair of pants. And that's the problem: There's too much fighting over details instead of getting everyone to agree on one thing — the current health care situation for all Americans (even the ones who can afford decent insurance) is untenable. We can't go forward as a nation if health insurance costs exceed mortgate payments, because of the overwhelming costs of health care.

Obama really did a poor job of selling this idea from the start. In fact, that's been his greatest shortcoming. He's had good ideas and his heart has been in the right place but he didn't do a good enough job selling it to the American people and let the asshole GOP Congress dictate the terms. I mean, how can anyone be against having affordable health care as most of our parents did just 20, 30 years ago? Nobody (other than godless profiteers), right? So can we all sit down and work out a plan that will make it happen? Instead of doing that, Obama sort of pushed back against the GOP and ended up with a Frankenstein of a program. But I'll give him credit for getting the ball rolling. If it was up to the GOP in Congress, nothing would have ever been done.

[bluetick]

The Cadillac tax was never implemented and was successfully delayed in Congress until 2020 (meaning it's not ever going to be a thing). Company-sponsored health plans that have seen reductions in services or increases in co-pays or out-of- pockets have done so at the discretion of the purchaser (ie: the employer). That's the way it's been for the last 40 years; employers have reduced their burden wrt to health ins. costs by spreading the pain to the workers. The ACA was designed primarily for the 45% of Americans who were not on an employer's health policy (and where 100% of the uninsured population was counted).

[eCat]

Well, I'll agree that the plan just was too problematic to be effective in the way it was intended. There's too much snipping around the hemline and ignoring the fact that they're trying to fit a 400-pound ass into a size 34 waist pair of pants. And that's the problem: There's too much fighting over details instead of getting everyone to agree on one thing — the current health care situation for all Americans (even the ones who can afford decent insurance) is untenable. We can't go forward as a nation if health insurance costs exceed mortgate payments, because of the overwhelming costs of health care.

Obama really did a poor job of selling this idea from the start. In fact, that's been his greatest shortcoming. He's had good ideas and his heart has been in the right place but he didn't do a good enough job selling it to the American people and let the asshole GOP Congress dictate the terms. I mean, how can anyone be against having affordable health care as most of our parents did just 20, 30 years ago? Nobody (other than godless profiteers), right? So can we all sit down and work out a plan that will make it happen? Instead of doing that, Obama sort of pushed back against the GOP and ended up with a Frankenstein of a program. But I'll give him credit for getting the ball rolling. If it was up to the GOP in Congress, nothing would have ever been done.

his biggest mistake was trying to sell the American people on the idea it was going to save money . Affordable Care Act? Its an insult, like the Patriot act. There is nothing affordable in any government created program that uses subsidizing the lower incomes to be able to compete with the haves - it just creates a feeding frenzy for the providers. The same with housing, the same with education.

The only way this system would work is open market and people are incentivized to go with the lowest cost provider. Because there is a disconnect between the person who receives the treatment and who pays the bills, the marketplace doesn't demand lower cost treatment, not to mention you can't put a price on someone's life.

Also, think about the healthcare you received when you were a kid. I don't know about you but we didn't have health insurance growing up. I didn't know what that was. We just had a little clinic that served the community with 2 old doctors and a 1950's era X-ray machine. They handled it all except the really serious shit - from runny noses to broken arms. They had an in house pharmacy too. I never realized it at the time but I'm sure my parents just prayed that we never got seriously sick - their health care plan was the same as it was when they were kids - and I can remember bills being less than $20. The nurse wrote out a hand written receipt from a pre-printed receipt pad and you wrote them a check.

I'm sure that clinic folded up its doors long ago.

[Saint]

Most people who worked in the '60s and '70s got health insurance from their employers — because it was all affordable. I've never had health problems but my mom was a nurse, so she didn't take us to the emergency room like plenty of my friends' moms or even aunts did. Half the time, they'd bring their bloody kids to our house so my mother could tell them if it was serious and it never was.

That health care plan you described was certainly better than what we have now. At least you could get the minimum amount of care for a few bucks. Now it costs a few hundred bucks just for some asshole in a white coat (not even a doctor) to write a 'script and tell you that you'll be fine in a few days.

[Saint]

But yeah, Obama's plan was not promoted properly, although the instantaneous opposition had a lot to do with it. So I think there's plenty of blame to go around and the situation is just going to keep getting worse from the looks of things.

[bluetick]

I certainly was hurt by Obamacare but it's not like things got so much worse because of it. Healthcare costs have been too much of a burden for nearly 20 years now. I don't see a way to rein them in without gov't intervention. We're beyond the free market doing its job because too many people view healthcare as a commodity, not an obligation. The ACA just paid off insurance fucks to keep them from torpedoing the whole thing, which in case you haven't noticed, they're in the process of doing now.

That's it in a nutshell. People KNOW it's a commodity. And it will always be so, thanks to lawmakers who've been bought with lobby money from the insurors, physicians/hospitals, and drugmakers. And all that dough tends to lessen any semblance of a "free market"; insurance companies consolidate, individual hospitals have given way to huge hospital chains, physicians merge into mega-groups. When all the hospitals in a region belong to the same corporation, they can charge Blue Cross whatever they like. Blue Cross threatens to pull out of a state if they aren't granted a huge premium increase. Malpractice insurors get theirs, as do malpractice lawyers. EpiPens cost $500 here; $50 in Britain.

[Bklyn]

Again, for all those shitting on the ACA, let's see what the world looks like after it is shut down. The people that hated it will have plenty of things to scapegoat when nothing changes. ..and some things get worse.

It'll be the same with those who hated all other things Obama legislated during his 8 years. All this railing about good paying jobs, Wall Street excess, national debt and border protection (which is funny because we have our lowest level of illegal immigrants in the country in over a decade, unemployment is at 4.9% and median household income up $5K in the last 5 years and the lowest level of uninsured [non-elderly], as a percentage, in the history of it being tracked) will still be scapegoated by a segment of the population regardless of how things turn in the next 5 years. I think it was Toe on here that by November 10th was saying something to the effect of "if this goes horribly, we can still blame the past administration like people have done in the past." When facts don't matter, we'll never make progress as a country. We're in an environment where anything reported can be deemed not credible if it doesn't suit the beliefs of the person consuming the news. This election had some going on and on about people living in bubbles, but the point they were making was geographic (the coasts versus the flyovers). That's not the bubble. The bubbles we have are about "information" and we, as a people, only seem to run to the news/editorials that reinforce our beliefs. It's a massive confirmation bias.

I'm all over the place on this. Basically, all of this is making me cynical because people don't seem to want shit to get better. They just want to win. That has created a body politic that gets a free pass when they don't get shit done. Even looking at some of the confirmation hearings, the answers given by Tillerson vs what Trump has said is diametrically opposed. The things that Congress is legislating vs what Trump says is incongruent. I really don't know what the road will be in front of us as a nation...if I think unselfishly.

[eCat]

I think the genie is out of the bottle.

I'm not expecting it to get better. I'm just pissed that Obama was more concerned with being remembered as the black FDR than he was getting it right.

because we have our lowest level of illegal immigrants in the country in over a decade

I'd have to read up on that especially given the dreamer act and Obama's executive orders telling ICE to stop enforcing laws.

median household income up $5K in the last 5 years

well that's one year of deductibles for the average family

and the lowest level of uninsured

amazing what passing a law that mandates insurnace and then giving out money to people will accomplish isn't it?

[eCat]

I think its interesting that CNN feeling the need to report the 35 page report that was released in full on Buzzfeed believes there is a line of separation by saying they didn't show it, they just talked about it. Maybe there is but its pretty clear that some journalistic line of integrity was crossed in the eyes of the old breed journalists.

That's the same shit Trump would do that would infuriate them. He'd tweet or talk about a rumor he heard (or made up) and then say he doesn't believe it, but it doesn't matter at that point - its in the public domain. The difference is they are a news organization. They want to talk about freedom of the press and the obligation the president has to give them access, and Acosta wants to scream at the president about what is not appropriate?

Trump labeled them as fake news in a nationally televised news conference. That's going to stick with CNN in the eye of the public for a long time and they know it. Tapper and Blitzer immediately went into damage control afterwards and I suspect CNN is going to expend alot of time and money to rid themselves of this label in the future.

CNN burned alot of capital with the public and the worst part of it, the public doesn't care what the 35 page report says (well, the neverTrumpers do but they are irrelevant at this point).

Instead of going after Trump, the best thing CNN can do is educate the public in simple terms that are not hyperbole or grandios liberal visions of doom on what Trumps actions mean to them in everyday terms.

Attacking Trump is why they have a credibility problem in the first place, but their so fucking dense and ingrained with their left wing attachment they can't help themselves.

[sardis]

What does it mean when the president tells a media outlet that they will "suffer the consequences" of publishing a report that he doesn't like as Trump did today to Buzzfeed? That doesn't sound especially constitutional.

Well, Buzzfeed could be sued for publishing a story with a reckless disregard of whether it was true or false. You have freedom of press, but you can't defame when you admit on Twitter that , yeah, it's pretty much not true, but let the public decide.

[eCat]

What does it mean when the president tells a media outlet that they will "suffer the consequences" of publishing a report that he doesn't like as Trump did today to Buzzfeed? That doesn't sound especially constitutional.

Well, Buzzfeed could be sued for publishing a story with a reckless disregard of whether it was true or false. You have freedom of press, but you can't defame when you admit on Twitter that , yeah, it's pretty much not true, but let the public decide.

not to mention that CNN needs access to the White House.

I don't think Trump will try to enact some dictatorial laws limiting or censoring the press - but he can certainly pull CNN's press pass and force them into reporting second hand news. For a 24/7 news channel that would be difficult to overcome.

[bluetick]

Well, Buzzfeed could be sued for publishing a story with a reckless disregard of whether it was true or false. You have freedom of press, but you can't defame when you admit on Twitter that , yeah, it's pretty much not true, but let the public decide.

In an opening disclaimer Buzzfeed said the claims in the 35 pages of documents were unverified and had errors. It's still there if you're interested.

The story IS the documents...that are in the hands of various politicans and our intel agencies (McCain turned his over to the FBI). Opposition research peddled by a former British intelligence officer, regarding the new leader of the free world. Surely there's a story there, right?

[eCat]

speaking of health insurance, there is also a new trend with ours at work

3 years ago we were incentivised (money to go against our deductible) to fill out a health questionairre. Last year they upped the ante to a questionairre and a physical. This year its a physical, a questionairre and then "voluntary" participation in a program that addresses 3 categories - fitness, mental health and nutrition. Each of these categories has sub categories that are the programs. I signed up for eating fish once a week, walking 3 miles a day and I can't remember what the mental health thing was. It suggested that I choose cutting out transfats , prepping to run in a some kind of organized run (which it offered to assist in signing me up for) and yoga classes at some local facility.

You can see where this is going - the incentives may stay or go but we're moving toward mandatory participation in a wellness program.We'll be like those japanese factory workers in the 80's doing exercises before starting our shift

[bluetick]

Lessee. Not that long ago, Trump quoted the National Enquirer...actually said "National Enquirer" - in making a connection between Ted Cruz's dad and the JFK assassination. And he's retweeted so many fake stories there's a top ten list.

But yeah...CNN and our intelligence community personify Nazi Germany, therefore libel laws regarding the media will be addressed and the intel agencies are going to be overhauled.