Florida State Seminoles

[Bklyn]

to their defense, if we have a government that can't stop spending

That's the thing. The proposals, as they stand now, offer tremendous spending cuts. However, because an increase in tax revenue exists in the proposal, then they are not budging. It's a horrible example of cutting your nose off to spite your face.

[Owlman]

then we're going to default at some point anyways - it is inevitable and the credit rating agency will not accept a temporary solution that Boehner is pushing anyways

it's not inevitable. The problem is that you have a President who wants a moderatee solution, willing to test the treasured cows of the left if the other party is willing to do something on revenue, all scheduled over time. $4.00 in spending decreases for every $1.00 in revenue and the Repubs won't go for it.

[Owlman]

Conservative columnist David Brooks from earlier in July.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/opini ... ef=opinion

The members of this movement do not accept the logic of compromise, no matter how sweet the terms. If you ask them to raise taxes by an inch in order to cut government by a foot, they will say no. If you ask them to raise taxes by an inch to cut government by a yard, they will still say no.

The members of this movement do not accept the legitimacy of scholars and intellectual authorities. A thousand impartial experts may tell them that a default on the debt would have calamitous effects, far worse than raising tax revenues a bit. But the members of this movement refuse to believe it.

[Saint]

the problem is that we entered a foolish war 8 years ago that I said at the time would bankrupt us and it nearly has. time to get the fuck out of the Middle East, the best way to cut spending. do it, obama. do it now.

[Owlman]

We actually made it easier for our number one enemy in the area, Iran, by getting rid of Saddam as opposed to leaving him as a cow-towed puppet. Now, if we just leave, there is a worry that Iran will just dominate Iraq, a real problem since we don't have any alternative energy resources (drilling in the U.S. won't do it). This dominates the decision to leave Iraq.

[Jungle Rat]

Iran has seen what we have done to Saddam and Osama, they are like Crow, Onion, Shiny and the rest of those dim witted mother fuckers. They talk the talk but when it comes down to it, can't walk the walk.

[Saint]

regardless of the consequences, I don't think we can afford to have that kind of presence in the region any more. the folks screaming about cutting spending need to recognize.

[eCat]

You can't give Obama a free pass on this.

He spearheaded a record stimulus spending plan that ended up shoring up states budgets and adding very little actual job creation..... if any.

You may find some sympathetic economist who will say what he did was necessary but it didn't accomplish the stated goal of stimulating the economy.

If we didn't have the stimulus spending to begin with, we'd still have the Bush accelerated war deficit but we wouldn't have the concern we do today.

Obama gambled that stimulus spending would result in getting millions of jobs back into the economy and the resulting tax flow would dampen the concern on deficit spending. That gamble didn't pay off.

[Jungle Rat]

Yet

[eCat]

there is no yet - unemployment has gone back up, not down

the fed is afraid to do anymore "quantitative easing"

[TheBigMook]

Many economists were saying from the start that the stimulus wasn't big enough. Obama had to keep cutting it down to appease the GOP (and those days he was even more about appeasing than he still is now.) Eventually the stimulus got shrunk so much that the best it could do was try to prevent unemployment from getting even worse than it got. Shoring up state budgets helped prevent even more layoffs and unpaid furlough days, but it didn't provide the major shot in the arm the economy needed to really start creating a net gain in jobs.

[AlabamAlum]

It's partisan politics. I have seen stimulus bills by repubs panned by the dems, and now vice versa.

It's what people do. And if it isn't effective, you somehow still blame the other side. "but we didn't get the bill we wanted!"

Reminds me of when some of my Repub friends said that Bush 41 only raised taxes to appease Dems. It's not his fault!

Or my dem friends who believe anything bad that happened in the first year or two of W's first term was the sole responsibly of W, but that Obama isn't to blame because of W.

In the end, I don't see a nickel's worth of difference on either side - save, of course, campaign rhetoric.

[TheBigMook]

I think in the end the 6 mo. plan will go through because there are enough new congressmen nitwits that don't understand how bad it would be to actually default. So the best Obama and the experienced Republicans will do is the every 6 months thing. Plus, the experienced GOPers in Congress will be happy because it means they can basically keep this fight going indefinitely and use it to keep Obama from working on much of anything else, including his campaign.

Hooray for magic underwear president!

[AlabamAlum]

But here's the thing: When/if Romney (or whomever on the other side) gets elected, the same tactic will exist - except it will switch parties. Repubs will be squealing and the Dems will be saying, "No, we have to be good stewards; we can't just keep raising the debt ceiling!"

[Saint]

no free pass for Obama on that but most of the whining today that the gov't is impeding business is a lie. it's not high taxes, it's poor business practices. people just don't want to pay their fair share because they're America haters

[eCat]

I don't think you can blame the tea party

This boils down to a basic distrust of politicians and this whole idea that the government spends and then raising the debt ceiling has to occur to cover government spending that is already in place. The tea party folks for lack of a better demographic are just trying to figure out how they get hit with mandated health care AND unprecedented defecit spending, and Obama is just saying the wrong stuff - like revenue generation and increased spending on the "important" programs liked education and the like.

You can't blame someone who wants the government to stop spending when they already owe the government $46K thanks to the politicians spending on their behalf.

You have to ask how can we begin paying back such a massive debt when we continually have to face the idea of raising the debt ceiling.

And I think that is why those tea party people are saying we don't care what happens, you aren't raising our taxes and you are drastically cutting spending. And they've proven to Boehner and McConnel they'll elect people that will adhere to that concept regardless of the situation.

At least on the surface, they don't believe in stimulus, they don't believe in bloated entitlements (which I assume translates to means based medicare and social security) and they are a mixed bag on military. They want the war to end until you tell them brown people want to kill them, then they want to go fight in 4 new countries.

[Owlman]

there is no yet - unemployment has gone back up, not down

the fed is afraid to do anymore "quantitative easing"

Unemployment went up last month primarily not because of private sector jobs (those increased) but because of loss of state jobs

[eCat]

Many economists were saying from the start that the stimulus wasn't big enough. Obama had to keep cutting it down to appease the GOP (and those days he was even more about appeasing than he still is now.) Eventually the stimulus got shrunk so much that the best it could do was try to prevent unemployment from getting even worse than it got. Shoring up state budgets helped prevent even more layoffs and unpaid furlough days, but it didn't provide the major shot in the arm the economy needed to really start creating a net gain in jobs.

given where we are, I can't imagine the idea of more stimulus. Debt is reaching a tipping point of GDP now.

[Owlman]

You can't blame someone who wants the government to stop spending when they already owe the government $46K thanks to the politicians spending on their behalf.

Oh yes I can. This is a false argument. Pay your bills. Anybody who's been in trouble monetarily knows it gets much harder to get out of it when your credit goes down. Pay your bills and address the problem where it is supposed to be addressed, in the budget. You may not like it, but the primary spokesperson for the teaparty is Michelle Bachman she is one of their leaders in the House. The number of teapartiers who have professed that they want us to default on the debt is not small. So yes, I do blame them, in part.

Did I get enough credits to go to the next year????

[Owlman]

Alright! Junior year.