Prof Tiger & Sardis "All Things Considered" Theology Hut

[sardis]

"For that matter, divorce is considered biblically wrong too, isn't it? And yet half the people that get married end up getting divorced, and nobody seems to mind at all."

There are Biblical reasons for divorce. This is one instance where Jesus took a tougher stance than Old Testament law:

"Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

[Cletus]

Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9–10).

For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due. (Romans 1:26-27)

For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine... (1 Tim 1:10)

Not a word from the core (if fictional) character in the book.

[hedge]

"For that matter, divorce is considered biblically wrong too, isn't it? And yet half the people that get married end up getting divorced, and nobody seems to mind at all."

There are Biblical reasons for divorce. This is one instance where Jesus took a tougher stance than Old Testament law:

"Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

So you would think that people who claim to truly believe in the bible would be at least as upset and vocal about divorce and bring their voices and opinions to bear on the politics of divorce as they seem to do when it comes to homosexuality. But yet they don't do this. Why do you think this is?

[bluetick]

So you would think that people who claim to truly believe in the bible would be at least as upset and vocal about divorce and bring their voices and opinions to bear on the politics of divorce as they seem to do when it comes to homosexuality. But yet they don't do this. Why do you think this is?

It was that way a hundred years ago. Divorce was extremely rare and divorcees were shunned. Most divorced women couldn't get a job or take out a loan.

A hundred years from now nobody will blink at the notion of sexual preference, or race. Or nationality for that matter. Course it'll be hot as hell and there won't be any polar bears, lions, or giraffes. Maybe my descendants can get some of that beachfront property down around the foothills of the Great Smoky Mts.

[hedge]

I agree with that, which is pretty much the opposite of sardis's notion that "When society is in error, scholars have to be more vocal on that particular issue." Seems to me, the history of the past few centuries has been that where religion is in error, society has been slowly correcting their wrong notions. I suspect this will continue apace...

[sardis]

Again, society and even a lot of Christian churches have soften their stance on your buggery, divorce, and gender issues; but the Bible still says what it says and there are those who still follow its tenets though they may get smaller in number. The Bible ain't going away. It will always be around despite man's hostility towards it.

[hedge]

You sound bitter about that. But Jesus himself told his followers that they should expect to be ridiculed for their beliefs, b/c they would appear as such (ridiculous) to most people. As Christopher Hitchens pointed out on the death of Jerry Falwell, that idea (the idea that christians should expect to be ridiculed for their beliefs) is true even of the most serious and devout christians. But for charlatans and huxters like Falwell and his ilk (and they are legion), it is a manifest duty to do so...

[Professor Tiger]

Seems to me, the history of the past few centuries has been that where religion is in error, society has been slowly correcting their wrong notions.

I would disagree. In 1861, about the only white Americans who were adamantly opposed to slavery were the abolitionists, who were largely Christian. Society (Lincoln and a morally complacent Union) were eventually corrected by the largely Christian abolitionists.

Also, in the late '50's and '60's, Jim Crowe was ended by the heroism (and often martyrdom) of black Christians. Society (i.e. the Congress, SCOTUS, and complacent white America) were corrected by the REVEREND Martin Luther King and other black Christian pastors and their flocks.

Of course, non-Christians were also involved in both these necessary corrections. But give the Christians credit for the critical leadership role they played in both.

[Professor Tiger]

Funny how you don't see many religious types getting so obsessed about adulterers, drunkards, "the greedy", etc, as they do about homos. Do you have any theory as to why that is the case?

You raise a fair point. I totally agree with Sardis when he says,

but the Bible still says what it says and there are those who still follow its tenets though they may get smaller in number. The Bible ain't going away. It will always be around despite man's hostility towards it.

Any fair reading of the New Testament would conclude that God disapproves of homosexual practice. It is a sin, and I will never call a sin a positive good just because that is the current obsession in the popular culture.

But that being said, I agree that Christians have elevated the outrage against homosexual activity above what the New Testament warrants. Christians have indeed gotten more angry at gay sex than adultery, drunkenness, greed, etc. It is noteworthy that, in God's greatest summary of moral code - the Ten Commandments - homosexuality is not mentioned but adultery is.

In the fundamentalist church where I was raised, hatred of homosexuality and gay people was encouraged. And hatred was not too strong a word. Fathers kicked their outed teenage sons out of the house and told them never to return. We hated the sin AND the sinner. But now I believe that we Christians are not authorized to hate ANYBODY, including gays. We must love them even if we biblically disagree with what they do. And we should pay at least as much attention to the beams in our own eyes as the specks in others.

[hedge]

"I would disagree. In 1861, about the only white Americans who were adamantly opposed to slavery were the abolitionists, who were largely Christian."

I'm sure most if not all of the slave owners and the rest of the southerners who supported them were ostensibly christians as well (to say nothing of the majority of northern christians who didn't care one way or the other about slavery). The main point, however, although one I suspect you are loath to admit, is that one needn't be a christian to be opposed to slavery. Neither Emerson nor Thoreau were christians, yet they were abolitionists. I'm sure there were many others. So no, you don't get to credit "christianity" with the abolitionist movement...

[hedge]

To say nothing of the fact that the bible itself has more than a few sections allowing and even setting up the protocols for the owning and treatment of slaves, which I'm sure most southerners referred to when they launched into the sophistry of christian and biblical justification that is the hallmark of most organized religions when they attempt to defend the indefensible...

[Professor Tiger]

The main point, however, although one I suspect you are loath to admit, is that one needn't be a christian to be opposed to slavery.

I already freely admitted that:

Of course, non-Christians were also involved in both these necessary corrections. But give the Christians credit for the critical leadership role they played in both.

Revise and resubmit. Also,

Neither Emerson nor Thoreau were christians, yet they were abolitionists. I'm sure there were many others. So no, you don't get to credit "christianity" with the abolitionist movement...

Incorrect:

The white abolitionist movement in the North was led by social reformers, especially William Lloyd Garrison, founder of the American Anti-Slavery Society; writers such as John Greenleaf Whittier and Harriet Beecher Stowe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism

At the age of 25, Garrison joined the anti-slavery movement, later crediting the 1826 book of Presbyterian Reverend John Rankin, Letters on Slavery, for attracting him to the cause.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lloyd_Garrison

John Greenleaf Whittier (December 17, 1807 – September 7, 1892) was an American Quaker poet and advocate of the abolition of slavery in the United States.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Greenleaf_Whittier

During a communion service at the college chapel, Stowe had a vision of a dying slave, which inspired her to write his story. Shortly after, in June 1851, when she was 40, the first installment of her Uncle Tom's Cabin was published in serial form in the newspaper National Era.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harriet_Beecher_Stowe

So, other than the fact three of the most prominent leaders of the abolitionist movement were Christians, and they specifically cited Christianity as the motivation behind their abolitionism, your assertion that Christianity gets no credit for abolitionism is spot on.

[Professor Tiger]

BTW, Frederick Douglass taught Sunday School:

When Douglass was hired out to William Freeland, he taught other slaves on the plantation to read the New Testament at a weekly Sunday school. As word spread, the interest among slaves in learning to read was so great that in any week, more than 40 slaves would attend lessons.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Douglass

[sardis]

You sound bitter about that. But Jesus himself told his followers that they should expect to be ridiculed for their beliefs, b/c they would appear as such (ridiculous) to most people. As Christopher Hitchens pointed out on the death of Jerry Falwell, that idea (the idea that christians should expect to be ridiculed for their beliefs) is true even of the most serious and devout christians. But for charlatans and huxters like Falwell and his ilk (and they are legion), it is a manifest duty to do so...

Not bitter at all. It's what we were told would happen. American Christians have had it pretty cushy until now. From what we've seen in the past, we may need persecution to revive us like it did in Roman times, Middle Ages, and currently in China and Middle East.

John 15:18-27

If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.

[Professor Tiger]

we may need persecution to revive us like it did in Roman times, Middle Ages, and currently in China and Middle East.

Don't forget under the Ottoman Turks and the the Soviet Union.

[hedge]

Well, you have to admit, plenty of "christians" seem to chafe when their beliefs are mocked or even questioned. Even some in here. You would think armed with the words from jesus himself's own mouth that they should expect such treatment that they wouldn't whine and mewl so much about it...

[sardis]

Well, in light of Christian history, we are a pussified group these days.

[Professor Tiger]

I think the biggest adjustment Christians in America need to make is accepting the fact that this is not a Christian nation anymore. It probably hasn't been for a long time. The best we can hope for is to be left alone. Worst case scenario is the forces of tolerance, pluralism and diversity will start building concentration camps for us. Whatever happens, Christians must prepare to live in a culture that is hostile to us, and likely to become more so.

Rod Dreher started writing two years ago about a way Christians can live in post-Christian America. He calls it "The Benedict Option." After SCOTUS decreed gay marriage on all 50 states, he restated "The Benedict Option" with a new sense of urgency. It has been getting a LOT of reaction from all kinds of Christians, both pro and con. A worthwhile read:

http://time.com/3938050/orthodox-christ ... n-country/

[Cletus]

[Professor Tiger]

Heh. If that graphic were true, then America would be a very different place then it is.