Puterbac News Network and Political Discussion Thread

[GBJs]

Why is there even a debate about having to show ID to vote? Don't got one, can't vote. Sorry.

Makes sense. It should also have your current address on it.

[puterbac]

LOL. Very convenient. You are against tax increases because you say that there is no evidence that they won't spend it, but then when it is pointed out that only 2 Presidents ago, that it happened you immediately discount it. The reality is the appropriate response to a major economic downturn is a decrease in taxes and a increase in spending. When things are going well, you should increase taxes and decrease spending to decrease that deficit. The only President to do that in the past 45 years was Clinton.

Christ.

Clinton nor anybody else projected surpluses even 4 years before they occured. Clinton's OMB was predicting 200+ billion deficits as far as the eye could see and then once there was a surplus everybody predicted they would go on forever and wipe out the debt at the time.

You had a perfect storm during that time with the most important being the explosion of the internet that led to tens of millions of high paying jobs that led to enormous increases in tax revenue. Combine that with relative peace (end of cold war and defense cuts), very low energy prices, and an opposition congress that wouldn't spend what Clinton wanted and you end up with surpluses that started disappearing as fast as they appeared thanks to the dot com burst.

But at least he did sign the capital gains cut and welfare reform

[puterbac]

I'm not convinced that raising the tax rate to be closer to the mean on that list is necessarli a good thing. Should we work to emulate France, Germany and Lichtenstein's business tax models?

I think we need to first work to get out of wars, and learn how to control spending by saying no. When we take in more, we tend to spend more and end up borrowing more.

If France, Germany, and Lichtenstein had fought wars this century while reducing revenues to record levels and then emerging no worse for the wear...then yeah, we should emulate the heck outta 'em.

As is stands, our problems are fairly unique when compared to the rest of the industrialized world. Dubya inherited arguably the strongest federal balance sheet in postwar history. Record high surpluses, debt was at 30% of GDP and falling ...the country was in great fiscal shape. But rather than follow Clinton's lead, dubya handed out those gigantic tax cuts, with those at the top of the income ladder getting the biggest breaks. Then he fought two endless wars on the other side of the world. And then we had the mortgage/derivitive meltdowm madness.

So we're in a huge financial hole...so deep that we have to look at revenue, same as we look to cut spending. Kill any and all Bush tax policies for starters. Re-jigger SS and Medicare/caid. Deep cut the defense budget. Rein in the corporate subsidies and welfare. Let our fiscal rehab be a shared sacrifice all across the board... we've all got skin in the game.

FTR W didn't inherit a record surplus. In fact he wasn't in office until late Jan of 2001. Oh and the tax cuts that were implemented and actually took effect in summer of 2001 were the ones that had the least impact as it was $300 and $600 married cuts that made the lowest bracket 10% instead of 15%. And its funny that you call them gigantic when Talent states they weren't that much in the first place. Hell the top bracket only went from 39.6 to 35

[puterbac]

Until we (they) can responsibly manage the money they do have, I will remain cynical that giving them more will help.

Why be cynical? You only have to go back 11 years. In 1993, Clinton raised taxes to a large outcry that it would damage our economy or that he'd just spend it. Didn't happen. He cut the size of government, revamped and limited AFDC and improved significantly the balance sheet. That's the plan to follow.

Well sure. Oh well you forgot R's controlled congress, relative peace in world, record low energy prices, and the revolution of the internet and the millions of high paying jobs (non-union btw) that led to record revenues.

But other than those things sure.

[Toemeesleather]

The crack (head) re-election team is coming together...



The beleaguered president has recruited former Goldman Sachs head honcho Jon Corzine to shore up re-election funds from the banking industry, which is furious over Obama's financial regulations.

Corzine, the former governor of New Jersey who was blasted out of office by Republican Chris Christie in 2009, has attended secret meetings with the president and has been working on Obama's 2012 campaign for months,




4 More Yearzzz!!!

[bluetick]

your graph is a couple of years outdated

but then turns back upward immediately with Bush II? .

You can't even read your own chart. Immediately? Looks like % of GDP stayed in the 30's under Bush until the fiscal year ending 2008....hmmmm, I wonder why the Bush tax cuts didn't blow up the deficit until then? What was the difference in 2007 legislature that could effect the deficit? I wonder why Clinton's deficit didn't get into the 30's until the second half of his presidency instead of the first half? It's an easy answer, tick.

Try this, Sardis...federal budget numbers from the OMB, sans graph.

1970 - 1997 yearly federal budget deficits (various prezes, mostly R)

1998 - federal budget surplus 69.2 billion (WJC, prez)
1999 - federal budget surplus 125.6 billion (WJC, prez)
2000 - federal budget surplus 236.2 billion (WJC, prez)

Now - see how that was trending? It's almost doubling every year downward. You get that, right? Now add this..

2001 - federal budget surplus 128.2 billion (GWB, prez)

Whoa. The trend was broken, as the surplus numbers immediately went in the other direction... literally doubled the other direction UP the chart . You see it now, don't you... the immediate part... dubya was the 'Immediator"

[AlabamAlum]

Tick,

Bush was inaugurated in 2001. His tax cuts legislation did not go through until after the 2001 tax deadline. Blaming Bush for 2001 is like blaming Obama for 2009.

Surely you can see that the near collapse of NASDAQ and the 9/11 attack had some bearing on the economy that year?

That said, the national debt is higher now than it was in Bush 43's last year. Do you blame Obama as someone who is making worse economic decisions than Bush 43?

[bluetick]

Corzine, the former governor of New Jersey who was blasted out of office by Republican Chris Christie in 2009, has attended secret meetings with the president and has been working on Obama's 2012 campaign for months,




4 More Yearzzz!!!

Heh. Poor toe still has no clue as to whomever R he'll get behind in this election. I suspect he's like a lot of others, pining away for somebody who's likely to stay on the sidelines.

[bluetick]

Tick,

Bush was inaugurated in 2001. His tax cuts legislation did not go through until after the 2001 tax deadline. Blaming Bush for 2001 is like blaming Obama for 2009.

Surely you can see that the near collapse of NASDAQ and the 9/11 attack had some bearing on the economy that year?

That said, the national debt is higher now than it was in Bush 43's last year. Do you blame Obama as someone who is making worse economic decisions than Bush 43?

Did you file your 2000 return on time, AA? If you did, you probably got something in the form of a rebate in the early summer of 2001...as a result of dubya's 2001 tax legislation. Or maybe I dreamed all of that.

No, it says here there was a $145 billion rebate (100 bil to taxpayers, 45 bil to businesses) as an immediate result of the Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconcilliation Act of 2001. 145 bil....coincidentally the 2000 year budget surplus was 236 bil and dropped off to 128 bil for 2001. Hmmm..

[Toemeesleather]

toe still has no clue as to whomever R he'll get behind in this election


Lmao....don't matter who it is, he/she will win.

[Toemeesleather]

$238K for every gubment/union job created by Dick Obammer.....(gold) shovel-ready!!111


4 More Yearzz!!

[Toemeesleather]

Keep telling us how much worse Bush was.....


4 More Yearzz!

[bluetick]

$238K for every gubment/union job created by Dick Obammer.....(gold) shovel-ready!!111


4 More Yearzz!!

You never hear about a Depression anymore, as we did constantly during the last year and a half of dubya and first six months of oprama. When everything went to hell with lenders, banks, and the world's largest insurance company. And everyone's 401k got cut in half..

Uh oh...I bet toe quit the market back then.... no wonder he's got the red ass

[Jungle Rat]

toe still has no clue as to whomever R he'll get behind in this election


Lmao....don't matter who it is, he/she will win.

BAHAHAHAHA!!! That's some funny shit right there!

[Toemeesleather]

...and the oceans stopped rising.

[puterbac]

Tick,

Bush was inaugurated in 2001. His tax cuts legislation did not go through until after the 2001 tax deadline. Blaming Bush for 2001 is like blaming Obama for 2009.

Surely you can see that the near collapse of NASDAQ and the 9/11 attack had some bearing on the economy that year?

That said, the national debt is higher now than it was in Bush 43's last year. Do you blame Obama as someone who is making worse economic decisions than Bush 43?

Did you file your 2000 return on time, AA? If you did, you probably got something in the form of a rebate in the early summer of 2001...as a result of dubya's 2001 tax legislation. Or maybe I dreamed all of that.

No, it says here there was a $145 billion rebate (100 bil to taxpayers, 45 bil to businesses) as an immediate result of the Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconcilliation Act of 2001. 145 bil....coincidentally the 2000 year budget surplus was 236 bil and dropped off to 128 bil for 2001. Hmmm..

The cut in 2001 was retroactive to Jan 1. It also only affected the bottom rate for that year which was lowered from 15% to 10%. If you remember Dems were bitching BIG time that it only affected people who paid income taxes and bottom 50% of income earners already pay ZERO income tax and therefore nothing would go to them. Dems wanted MORE tick not less.

And ftr what is wrong with a surplus being returned to those that paid it? Just curious on that one.

Anyway I've shown numerous times from Oprama's own admin numbers that after the tax cuts were fully put in place for EVERYONE including the highest brackets that tax revenue (personal income and biz tax) to the treasury increased every year until 2008 when unemployment went up dramatically.

In 2007 the deficit was down to 160 billion despite spending increasing every year. So how did this happen if tax cuts are a cost only and don't help spur growth and hiring?

Politicians can't be trusted on spending cut promises. I wish that weren't the case, but Reagan never saw promised cuts and neither did 41. The best way to increase revenue to the treasury is by putting in rules and regs that encourage people to risk their own damn money to start or grow their biz. As long as their is extreme uncertainty on what the costs of hiring are going to be that isn't going to happen. Tax rates are uncertain as are all the regs from Opramacare. If nobody knows what it will cost to hire an employee how can you expect them to take the risk?

Its really not more complicated than that. Add certainty to taxes and regs where people can plan more than a year in advance and you will see hiring jump and the econ expand.

[AlabamAlum]

Tick,

Yes I filed late. I usually get two extensions before I will pay.

But you're right: the rebates did come that summer. Do you think they had zero positive effect?

Also, since debt is higher now than under Bush, do you blame Obama? Is he worse than Bush in regards to the economy or would you say that other factors, outside of Obama's control make the debt comparison an unfair one to saddle Obama with?

[sardis]

Ok, tick, since you can't figure it out on your own, I guess I'll have to spell it out for you. The key in bridging the deficit gap is in the spending. You are so enamored with Clinton's balance budget in 1999-2001. Well, here is the secret to Clinton's balance budget. The government spent less during that time as a percentage of GDP (18%) than at anytime since the 50's. The Republican congress had a significan part in that. In fact, when government outlays are above 20% it's usually a Democratic controlled congress in session. What's the importance of keeping spending below 20% of gdp? There has only been 3 out of the past 70 years where tax receipts have exceeded 20% of GDP. No matter what tax structure you have or how high the rates are, history tells us you can only hope to collect at the most 19-20% of gdp. Outlays currently are at 25% of gdp, projected to be 23% thereafter.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default ... st01z2.xls

So tick, I'll make a deal with ya. I'll let you have Clinton's tax rates in 2000 if you also let us have the R congress's expenditures in 2000. All you hve to cut is another $750 billion year....Deal?

[GBJs]

Corzine, the former governor of New Jersey who was blasted out of office by Republican Chris Christie in 2009, has attended secret meetings with the president and has been working on Obama's 2012 campaign for months,




4 More Yearzzz!!!

Heh. Poor toe still has no clue as to whomever R he'll get behind in this election. I suspect he's like a lot of others, pining away for somebody who's likely to stay on the sidelines.

I resemble that comment, because Obama absolutely SUCKS ASS! And it's not because he's listed as a Democrat.

[Dora]

This is old news, but I just now saw this & I was mightily impressed:

"You get to the point where you evolve in your life where everything
isn't black and white, good and bad, and you try to do the right
thing. You might not like that. You might be very cynical about that.
Well, fuck it, I don't care what you think. I'm trying to do the right
thing. I'm tired of Republican-Democrat politics. They can take the
job and shove it. I come from a blue-collar background. I'm trying to
do the right thing, and that's where I'm going with this."

--New York Republican State Senator Roy McDonald, on the Gay marriage
issue, when announcing he would support approving the legislation