Puterbac News Network and Political Discussion Thread

[sardis]

That's why we need to reform SS and Medicare. Raise the retirement age to 70.

[bluetick]

I wholeheartedly agree, sardis.

Naturally you have to phase those changes in, exempting everyone 55+...

[innocentbystander]

That's why we need to reform SS and Medicare. Raise the retirement age to 70.

55+ you must wait until 65. No more early (reduced) money at 62.

If you are 45-54 now, raise eligibility age for first check to 70.

If you are 35-44 now, raise to 72.

If you are 25-34 now, raise to 75.

Under 25, you can wait until 80. I don't want to hear any complaints youngsters, you will live to 110.

Have Paul Ryan write the Bill. Have 100% of the GOP and 100% of the Democrats get behind it (because it is right and good and just for the country.) Have President Obama sign it into law. Stop the madness.

[Cletus]

Will any women members of congress be allowed to vote?

[innocentbystander]

Will any women members of congress be allowed to vote?

you tell me

[Dr. Strangelove]

Two reporters for the Guardian witness over 20 Russian military vehicles entering Ukraine

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/a ... ort-border

In general, the men did not want to speak about who they were or how they had come to be involved in the convoy. One said he was a volunteer from a non-governmental organisation, but clammed up when asked for the name of the organisation.

"I'm being paid to do a job here, not to stand around talking to journalists," he said when pressed, and then looked sheepish when reminded he had just claimed to be an unpaid volunteer.

[sardis]

The airline incident seems to be in the rearview mirror of the world press. Putin will now proceed as originally planned.

[Johnette's Daddy]

Two reporters (one of them with the Washington Post) arrested in Ferguson, MO...not charged with anything...then later released and the police refuse to say why they were ever arrested in the first place or give the names of the arresting officers

http://gawker.com/washington-post-huffp ... 1621284034

Correction: They were arrested for "not leaving a McDonald's fast enough" when ordered to do so by police. And for filming police when ordered not to do so. Another reporter (for the LA Times) calls the Chief for comment and he's stunned and confused over the phone. They're released within minutes of the phone call.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post ... n/?hpid=z3

Was wondering if anyone here would comment on Ferguson.

Amazed at how no one is questioning the Ferguson PD's account that an 18-year old college student with no drugs in his system and no history of police run ins at all would try to attack and disarm a trained law enforcement officer. If the guy was a hardened criminal or a gangbanger who didn't want to go back to jail, that story *might* make some sense.

I went to HS not far from Ferguson (my school was in Florissant, another North County suburb of St. Louis) and I was there in the 70s when kids from the "black" suburbs like Kinlock were bussed to "white" suburbs like Ferguson (it was mostly white then) and Florissant. There were huge racial tensions then and as the demographics have shifted the tensions have gotten worse over the past 30+ years. I go back to St. Louis twice yearly on business and my colleagues who pastor in the greater St. Louis area are trying to get out.

[Professor Tiger]

Ferguson sounds very fishy to me. Shooting an unarmed person who, at worst, stole a box of cigars, sounds like the definition of excess use of force.

At first, I thought the responding officers were approaching someone who matched the description an ARMED robbery suspect. This would give them reason to believe he could be armed and therefore dangerous. But the robber was not armed. Maybe the officers were not aware of that, but they absolutely should not have used deadly force unless presented with deadly force. Michael Brown had no weapon, therefore use of deadly force on him was totally wrong. Period.

And the fact that two reporters got arrested for the crime of "not leaving a McDonalds fast enough" suggests a seriously dysfunctional culture in the Ferguson PD. The local community has every reason to be upset and protest. I congratulate them that their legitimate protest has been largely peaceful.

My fellow Libertarians, and my current presidential favorite Rand Paul, well summarize my response to this tragedy:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ ... story.html

[Johnette's Daddy]

Ferguson sounds very fishy to me. Shooting an unarmed person who, at worst, stole a box of cigars, sounds like the definition of excess use of force.

At first, I thought the responding officers were approaching someone who matched the description an ARMED robbery suspect. This would give them reason to believe he could be armed and therefore dangerous. But the robber was not armed. Maybe the officers were not aware of that, but they absolutely should not have used deadly force unless presented with deadly force. Michael Brown had no weapon, therefore use of deadly force on him was totally wrong. Period.

And the fact that two reporters got arrested for the crime of "not leaving a McDonalds fast enough" suggests a seriously dysfunctional culture in the Ferguson PD. The local community has every reason to be upset and protest. I congratulate them that their legitimate protest has been largely peaceful.

My fellow Libertarians, and my current presidential favorite Rand Paul, well summarize my response to this tragedy:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ ... story.html

The other issue is that it took them 5 days to come up with the alleged cigar robbery, but AFAIK has neither released surveillance footage from the convenience store nor announced the recovery of said cigars.

[innocentbystander]

Two reporters (one of them with the Washington Post) arrested in Ferguson, MO...not charged with anything...then later released and the police refuse to say why they were ever arrested in the first place or give the names of the arresting officers

http://gawker.com/washington-post-huffp ... 1621284034

Correction: They were arrested for "not leaving a McDonald's fast enough" when ordered to do so by police. And for filming police when ordered not to do so. Another reporter (for the LA Times) calls the Chief for comment and he's stunned and confused over the phone. They're released within minutes of the phone call.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post ... n/?hpid=z3

Was wondering if anyone here would comment on Ferguson.

I don't think there is very much to say. It is a real mess right now. JD, would you want to be a cop in that city dealing with this? I'll tell you what, I sure wouldn't. No thanks.

I will admit that when the wife and I moved to Arizona from East Coast (more than ten years ago now), I actually interviewed with a couple local law enforcement agencies here in Arizona. I'll never forget what they said to all of us potential "recruits" at one of them. Recruiting officer gets up on top of a table and looks at the whole room full of us and he screaming at us saying...

• This is a para-military organization. If that bothers you, this is NOT the job for you.
• If the whole idea of wearing a bullet proof vest for the next 10 years bothers you, this is NOT the job for you.
• If you condone any infraction of the law, from jaywalking to homicide, this is NOT the job for you.
• If you see a kid holding a gun and pointing it at someone (kid might just be 8 years old) and you can't shoot and kill that kid dead, this is NOT the job for you.

The city was sick and tired of spending $17,000 a pop (to send a recruit to one of the state's police academies) only to have that recruit say 6 months in that they have to quit because they can't pull out their gun. That drove this guy crazy.

I don't know what kind of shenanigans go on in the Ferguson PD, but if I'm a beat cop, I don't want to go work right now, not with the whole world lurking over my shoulder, scrutinizing every decision I make, not knowing if I'm going to get killed in the next riot.

[sardis]

"This is.a paramilitary organization"

Wrong. This idea is part of the problem.

[innocentbystander]

"This is.a paramilitary organization"

Wrong. This idea is part of the problem.

Hey man, I'm only telling you what the guy told all of us.

I guess from the recruiting officer's perspective, that job would NOT be the job for you. It most certainly was not the job for me.

[innocentbystander]

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2 ... n-ferguson

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2 ... a-approval

[Johnette's Daddy]

Two reporters (one of them with the Washington Post) arrested in Ferguson, MO...not charged with anything...then later released and the police refuse to say why they were ever arrested in the first place or give the names of the arresting officers

http://gawker.com/washington-post-huffp ... 1621284034

Correction: They were arrested for "not leaving a McDonald's fast enough" when ordered to do so by police. And for filming police when ordered not to do so. Another reporter (for the LA Times) calls the Chief for comment and he's stunned and confused over the phone. They're released within minutes of the phone call.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post ... n/?hpid=z3

Was wondering if anyone here would comment on Ferguson.

I don't think there is very much to say. It is a real mess right now. JD, would you want to be a cop in that city dealing with this? I'll tell you what, I sure wouldn't. No thanks.

I will admit that when the wife and I moved to Arizona from East Coast (more than ten years ago now), I actually interviewed with a couple local law enforcement agencies here in Arizona. I'll never forget what they said to all of us potential "recruits" at one of them. Recruiting officer gets up on top of a table and looks at the whole room full of us and he screaming at us saying...

• This is a para-military organization. If that bothers you, this is NOT the job for you.
• If the whole idea of wearing a bullet proof vest for the next 10 years bothers you, this is NOT the job for you.
• If you condone any infraction of the law, from jaywalking to homicide, this is NOT the job for you.
• If you see a kid holding a gun and pointing it at someone (kid might just be 8 years old) and you can't shoot and kill that kid dead, this is NOT the job for you.

The city was sick and tired of spending $17,000 a pop (to send a recruit to one of the state's police academies) only to have that recruit say 6 months in that they have to quit because they can't pull out their gun. That drove this guy crazy.

I don't know what kind of shenanigans go on in the Ferguson PD, but if I'm a beat cop, I don't want to go work right now, not with the whole world lurking over my shoulder, scrutinizing every decision I make, not knowing if I'm going to get killed in the next riot.

IB - I'm a cop's son and have two cops (one retired) as siblings. I'm also a PD Chaplain (turned down the opportunity go to the Academy for a week and get sworn in as a Reserve cop b/c they are required to keep a weapon in the car and I didn't want that around my kids).

The issue is the whole "paramilitary organization" and "us vs. them" mentality. Before returning to LA, I pastored in Fontana, CA which was the former home of the Klan in Cali (a KKK rally in the 90s disrupted the filming of Terminator 2) and several officers were outed as Klansmen.

The new Police Chief came onboard in 2006 and one of the things he did - and he was a dyed-in-the-wool Reagan Republican - was to get Black & Latino clergy to bring the Police Explorers program into the churches so that they could work on converting a force that was 70% white in a town that was 70% non-white. His thinking was that since Blacks & Latinos made most of the police calls (noise disturbances/domestic violence/petty crimes) it would be efficacious to be able to respond to those calls with officers that represented the community. And it worked over a five year period. They were able to get to minority kids before they committed stupid petty drug crimes that would make them ineligible to apply, hook them on law-enforcement careers, nurture them through 2 years of Community College, enroll them in the Academy and then pay them starting salaries of 60K as 21-22 year olds.

They got 2 kids out of my (former) church who are now cops and have added about 20-25 new minority officers since 2008 (which is huge for a force that size). Better still, they've actually cut down on the crime rate during a bad economy because they now have more cops living in/spending time in "high impact" neighborhoods because the cops are driving through to see family, etc., and don't get the same lip/animosity that the old cops got. All it cost Fontana PD was some brochures, some retraining of attitudes and a Chief who invested his time.

[Professor Tiger]

The other issue is that it took them 5 days to come up with the alleged cigar robbery, but AFAIK has neither released surveillance footage from the convenience store

Here's the surveillance video:

[Cletus]

"This is.a paramilitary organization"

Wrong. This idea is part of the problem.

Please keep in mind, the events described by IB never actually happened.

[hedge]

"Before returning to LA, I pastored in Fontana, CA"

Detective Fontana replaced Lenny Briscoe on Law and Order...

[innocentbystander]

I don't think there is very much to say. It is a real mess right now. JD, would you want to be a cop in that city dealing with this? I'll tell you what, I sure wouldn't. No thanks.

I will admit that when the wife and I moved to Arizona from East Coast (more than ten years ago now), I actually interviewed with a couple local law enforcement agencies here in Arizona. I'll never forget what they said to all of us potential "recruits" at one of them. Recruiting officer gets up on top of a table and looks at the whole room full of us and he screaming at us saying...

• This is a para-military organization. If that bothers you, this is NOT the job for you.
• If the whole idea of wearing a bullet proof vest for the next 10 years bothers you, this is NOT the job for you.
• If you condone any infraction of the law, from jaywalking to homicide, this is NOT the job for you.
• If you see a kid holding a gun and pointing it at someone (kid might just be 8 years old) and you can't shoot and kill that kid dead, this is NOT the job for you.

The city was sick and tired of spending $17,000 a pop (to send a recruit to one of the state's police academies) only to have that recruit say 6 months in that they have to quit because they can't pull out their gun. That drove this guy crazy.

I don't know what kind of shenanigans go on in the Ferguson PD, but if I'm a beat cop, I don't want to go work right now, not with the whole world lurking over my shoulder, scrutinizing every decision I make, not knowing if I'm going to get killed in the next riot.

IB - I'm a cop's son and have two cops (one retired) as siblings. I'm also a PD Chaplain (turned down the opportunity go to the Academy for a week and get sworn in as a Reserve cop b/c they are required to keep a weapon in the car and I didn't want that around my kids).

The issue is the whole "paramilitary organization" and "us vs. them" mentality. Before returning to LA, I pastored in Fontana, CA which was the former home of the Klan in Cali (a KKK rally in the 90s disrupted the filming of Terminator 2) and several officers were outed as Klansmen.

The new Police Chief came onboard in 2006 and one of the things he did - and he was a dyed-in-the-wool Reagan Republican - was to get Black & Latino clergy to bring the Police Explorers program into the churches so that they could work on converting a force that was 70% white in a town that was 70% non-white. His thinking was that since Blacks & Latinos made most of the police calls (noise disturbances/domestic violence/petty crimes) it would be efficacious to be able to respond to those calls with officers that represented the community.

Good story. I don't have any family members that are/were cops. Actually that is not entirely true. My great-grandfather was a Boston beat cop in the 1930s and 1940s. I never knew him (he was dead long before I was born.) So I have no past experience in living that kind of lifestyle. It appears you have a lot of life experience here since you are the son of a cop. I respect the fact that you didn't want to be packing a firearm in your car (since you have kids) to be a reserve law enforcement officer. That was probably a very tough decision for you.

But that didn't really answer my question. So I'll try again, would you want to be a cop right now in Ferguson? I don't think any of would want that given what is going on there.

As far as making the civil servants of a community reflect the Demographics of that community, the problem I have with that is qualifications. Think about it for the moment. The city of Washington DC worked very hard (over many decades) to do all they could to ensure the Demographic make-up of their primary and secondary school teachers are a direct relfection of the Demographics/racial make-up of Washington DC. That was something that they were proud of in fact. And the schools were dead last in performace in the nation in several standardized categories. Bottomline JD, the teachers couldn't teach, they weren't qualified. So although they could better empathyze with their students and students trusted them more, they weren't learning anything. Still aren't learning anything. Those kids have little hope. And there was absolutely nothing that Michelle Rhee could do to fix the problem. They were employed and compensated based on seniority, not merit. Those teachers in Washington all had unions/tenure and their jobs were protected from termination for lack of performance. This is exactly what you have with police officers (unions and seniority.)

I mean what is more important to you for your civil servants? Do you insist that they have a simlar ancentory/heritage as the community they serve so that they are more easily trusted OR is it more important that they be competent in their jobs? I think what you are suggesting is a very slippery slope sir.

[hedge]

"My great-grandfather was a Boston beat cop in the 1930s and 1940s. I never knew him (he was dead long before I was born.)"

Lucky him...