Florida State Seminoles

[innocentbystander]

Jeez, Israel is trying to persuade the US that we should help them? How clever of those authors to notice this.

Perhaps I am in the minority here, but I believe the US should support Israel whether it's in our interest to do so or not.

I don't think you are in the "minority" here Red Bird, but this remark does a damn good job describing the "guilt."

Thank you for that.

[innocentbystander]

Democrats get 90% of Jewish vote?!

Probably more.

American Jews vote Democrat. That is what they do. They vote Democrat. Almost all of them do so, Democratic line. If you ask a Jew why they do that they will give you a variety of answers (some stemming from FDR, some about helping the common man, some for the belief in Socialism being almost "Jewish" what with their Kibutzes) but it doesn't matter. They vote Democrat.

[Owlman]

It's probably closer to 70% than 90% normally for President, but again since the speech was just a reiteration of existing policy, I don't see the big deal about the speech.

I read a yahoo article about Arab leaders upset because in the same speech Obama called for recognition of all for a Jewish State. Really??? Again, nothing new.

[innocentbystander]

It's probably closer to 70% than 90% normally for President, but again since the speech was just a reiteration of existing policy, I don't see the big deal about the speech.

You'll have to find me a youtube where President Bush (either one of the two) think pre-1967 borders for Israel was what they wanted.

I read a yahoo article about Arab leaders upset because in the same speech Obama called for recognition of all for a Jewish State. Really??? Again, nothing new.

I'm not sure the Democrats or even the Republicans give a fuck WHO the American Arabs vote for.....

[Owlman]

You'll have to find me a youtube where President Bush (either one of the two) think pre-1967 borders for Israel was what they wanted.

Been addressed ad infinitum. Go above and look at the letter from Bush to Sharon in which he says a solution based on UN Resolution 242 (which talks about the borders before the 1967 war). Both Bush and Obama were specifically saying though that those will not be the exact borders but that those borders with offsets as the starting point.

I'm not sure the Democrats or even the Republicans give a fuck WHO the American Arabs vote for.....

I wasn't talking about the voter. I was talking about how all the complaints are about a speech in which there has been no change in existing U.S. policy, whether it's about UN Resolution 242 or about recognizing Israel

[innocentbystander]

I'm not sure the Democrats or even the Republicans give a fuck WHO the American Arabs vote for.....

I wasn't talking about the voter. I was talking about how all the complaints are about a speech in which there has been no change in existing U.S. policy, whether it's about UN Resolution 242 or about recognizing Israel

heh, that's because the people who are complaining now never believed that the existing US policy was the true will of the current adminstration. They figured it was just talk service to shut the UN up (and it probably was.)

...but THIS PRESIDENT saying that about Israel? That just didn't compute.

As I said earlier, I don't think President Obama believes what he is saying. The people who are "outraged" haven't changed how they will vote (for or against him) as a result of their "outrage." But the people who might not think this is a bad idea (going back to pre-1967) who are sick of Obama, might not be so sick of him anymore.

Every action this administration does from now until early November 2012, will be for the sole purpose of re-election. Believe it Owl.

[Owlman]

Code: Select all

http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/01/03/us-palestinians-israel-bush-quotes-idUSN0324153120080103

Bush 2004:

* "In light of new realities on the ground, including already existing major Israeli population centers (in the West Bank), it is unrealistic to expect that the outcome of final status negotiations will be a full and complete return to the armistice lines of 1949." -- White House news conference, April 14, 2004

Bush 2008:

Speaking after two days of meetings with Prime Minister Ehud Olmert of Israel and the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, Bush said, "I believe that any peace agreement between them will require mutually agreed adjustments to the armistice lines of 1949 to reflect current realities and to ensure that the Palestinian state is viable and contiguous."

Code: Select all

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2008/01/11/bush_outlines_plan_for_mideast_peace/

[Red Bird]

Setting aside Obama's intentions - I think we're all pretty well dug in there - I wonder what Bibi intends for the eventual outcome of this whole mess?

I'm convinced that if Bibi could have his way, Israel would never give an inch of Judea or Samaria to the Arabs. That's OK with me, but what I can't follow is just how he expects this to work out?

Plainly, the original plan was to gradually increase the Jewish population in these disputed areas by building settlements on top of settlements if need be. Meanwhile, make it less than desirable for the Arabs to remain in these areas by limiting economic opportunity and political rights etc. etc. By encouraging the Arabs to leave while building Jewish settlements, Israel hoped this debate would become moot because the Jews would eventually be a majority in the entire region. Case closed.

But either by clever design, or fortuitous accident, the Arabs had an answer for this plan. They didn't leave. Instead their supporters provided enough money for them to survive and even multiply. By and large, these people are very poor, but the one thing poor people do very well is breed. So despite various pressures applied by Israel to induce the Arabs to leave, the Arab population of the area in question is growing even faster than the Jewish population.

So Israel keeps building settlements, but the demographic trends suggest the effort is futile. And the longer this goes on, the more sympathetic these masses of poor Arabs become.

Now, I know the Israeli Prime Minister understands these facts better than I do, so what is his plan? Time is working against the Jews now, so what does he intend to do?

I'd love to get Bibi in a room, just him and me, convince him he can trust me to keep quite about whatever he tells me and ask him because I don't see where the Jews are going with this. I don't see the end game.

[Owlman]

lol

I'd love to get Bibi in a room, just him and me, convince him he can trust me to keep quite about whatever he tells me and ask him because I don't see where the Jews are going with this. I don't see the end game.

[youtube]kGo1-EVrsx8[/youtube]

[eCat]

jw matthews goes off talking shit about our intellectual discussions and then tells Rat to lick his dick?

don't go away mad, just go away.

I don't doubt its a mixed bag but it doesn't make sense to me for Jews to vote democrat over RINO's. Paul Wolfowitz was named the Jerusalem Times man of the year for pushing America into a long term war with Iraq and his domino theory of the middle east.

RINO's are the war party.

[Dora]

Paul Wolfowitz was named the Jerusalem Times man of the year for pushing America into a long term war with Iraq and his domino theory of the middle east. RINO's are the war party.

The Jerusalem Times is not represetative of American Jews. Most people never even heard of this paper. I'm an American Jew & I opposed the Iraq war from the get go. So did all the Jews I know. Polls have repeatedly shown that American Jews are against this war. I don't see any benefit to Jews or to Americans from our presence in Iraq so why would I support RINOs?

[eCat]

again, I don't have a problem with Israel's right to exist

but they're going to have to be able to do it without America standing behind them with a big club.

[Dora]

Something else... I'm a newbie here so I don't know you guys very well. But if I had to guess, I would guess most of you vote Republican & voted for Bush. If you oppose this war for Israel, why did you vote for Bush? And if you did, why blame Israel for the policy of your guy?

[eCat]

I'm pretty sure most of us voted for Obama. Could be wrong on that though.

One of the reasons I voted for Obama is because I figured he'd be more sympathetic to the Muslims and in turn piss off Israel.

But mostly because McCain was a giant douche.

[Dora]

That's interesting ecat. I would have guessed you voted Republican. Did you vote for Bush?

[eCat]

Paul Wolfowitz was named the Jerusalem Times man of the year for pushing America into a long term war with Iraq and his domino theory of the middle east. RINO's are the war party.

The Jerusalem Times is not represetative of American Jews. Most people never even heard of this paper. I'm an American Jew & I opposed the Iraq war from the get go. So did all the Jews I know. Polls have repeatedly shown that American Jews are against this war. I don't see any benefit to Jews or to Americans from our presence in Iraq so why would I support RINOs?

I don't know, kinda figured that "death to Israel" thing Saddam had going while he was launching scud missiles had something to do with it.

[eCat]

That's interesting ecat. I would have guessed you voted Republican. Did you vote for Bush?

well you aren't too far off - McCain wasn't conservative enough for me and I figured the only way to get rid of the RINOs was to put the most liberal guy possible in office and force the Republican to get serious about returning back to its roots. While many republicans question that logic, we do have the Tea Party which would not exist had McCain been elected. Unfortunately for me I'm totally disgusted with how the tea party has been whored out by social agenda nutjobs and war hawks.

I"m not a Reagan republican, I am a Barry Goldwater republican. I voted for Bush over Gore, voted for Kerry in 2004 but only in protest of the patriot act and the war.

[Dora]

The scud missiles happened during the first Gulf War. It wasn't an issue in 2003 when Bush attacked Iraq. If Bush wanted to serve Israel, he would have attacked Iran. That's who Israel has been worried about since the 90s.

[eCat]

The scud missiles happened during the first Gulf War. It wasn't an issue in 2003 when Bush attacked Iraq. If Bush wanted to serve Israel, he would have attacked Iran. That's who Israel has been worried about since the 90s.

Lets look at a map.

Which countries border Iran? and which countries are we currently occupying? The world would tolerate an invasion of Afghanistan because of 9/11, they'd turn a blind eye to Iraq because of Saddam. They wouldn't not accept a pre-emptive strike against Iran by the United States.

That has Wolfwowitz's domino theory written all over it.

[Dora]

Our presence in Iraq hasn't reined in Iran at all. Not only did the US not attack Iran, but it would not aid Israel in doing so either.