UCLA Bruins

[eCat]

I wonder what the auction house cut was on that blanket?

between 10% and 17% I've read

[crashcourse]

and the irs

probably pocketed 50 % of the 1.4 mil,

[eCat]

anyone watching Ken Burn's Vietnam series on PBS?

its typical Ken Burns quality.

[hedge]

Yes on both counts. Peter Coyote is a great narrator. Not that it's any revelation that geopolitics is a dirty, duplicitous business fueled mostly by pure greed, but the whole business about France being over there for 100 years (and the same applies to the British Empire as well) pretty well puts the lie to the idea that western democracies are some idealistic force of goodness while communism is pure evil. My basic takeaway is that humans with political power are almost always bad or at the very least are going to assert that power for goals that are almost purely selfish and have nothing to do with the welfare of the people...

[eCat]

Kennedy "approving" that coup 22 days before he died sealed Vietnam's fate. That was my biggest takeway from it so far

[sardis]

Saw it Sunday night, missed it last night because of travel. I didn't DVR so I'm guessing I can see it on the PBS site?

[hedge]

Kennedy seemed like a pretty level-headed guy and it sounds like he genuinely regretted going along with that coup. He had a lot of other stuff on his plate, obviously, but they also said he clearly felt he had to keep the pressure on in Vietnam at least until the next election b/c he didn't think he'd get reelected if he looked soft on communism. But I got the sense that he wasn't all-in at all on the whole thing and actually thought it was an obvious loser long term, so I suspect he would've withdrawn after he'd gotten reelected. Really makes you wonder what America would look like today if he had served two terms, followed by 2 terms of Bobby...

[eCat]

just checked...looks like you can watch episodes 3 and 4 on pbs.org as well as the first 2

[DooKSucks]

Yes on both counts. Peter Coyote is a great narrator. Not that it's any revelation that geopolitics is a dirty, duplicitous business fueled mostly by pure greed, but the whole business about France being over there for 100 years (and the same applies to the British Empire as well) pretty well puts the lie to the idea that western democracies are some idealistic force of goodness while communism is pure evil. My basic takeaway is that humans with political power are almost always bad or at the very least are going to assert that power for goals that are almost purely selfish and have nothing to do with the welfare of the people...

Yep. People fucking suck. Communism tends to suck more, but let's not act like the European colonial powers were doing shit due to noblis oblige.

Kennedy "approving" that coup 22 days before he died sealed Vietnam's fate. That was my biggest takeway from it so far

There's a great conversation between DIck Russell and LBJ where they talk about the coup. It's around 22 minutes long, and i'm sure you will hear parts of it in upcoming episodes. Everyone thought it was a damn mistake.

Side Note: i took a class on executive politics my senior year for my Poli Sci graduation paper. The whole class was based on LBJ because his presidency was so well documented with paperwork and recordings. You can go to the UVA's Miller Center's website to download thousands of hours of tapes. I had an mini video ipod that had a lot of LBJ's stuff on there. I would listen to it during car trips between SC and NC, especially when dad was first ill and driving 3-4 hours each way constantly. If you're a history geek, that stuff is fascinating.

Kennedy seemed like a pretty level-headed guy and it sounds like he genuinely regretted going along with that coup. He had a lot of other stuff on his plate, obviously, but they also said he clearly felt he had to keep the pressure on in Vietnam at least until the next election b/c he didn't think he'd get reelected if he looked soft on communism. But I got the sense that he wasn't all-in at all on the whole thing and actually thought it was an obvious loser long term, so I suspect he would've withdrawn after he'd gotten reelected. Really makes you wonder what America would look like today if he had served two terms, followed by 2 terms of Bobby...

Yeah. The Kennedy defenders/priests such as Sorenson and the like all swear JFK was going to get out of Vietnam (along with making Terry Sanford his VP in '64). I wonder if he would have been stuck as well with the idea of attaining the victory that was just one more surge away. I

t's funny how history repeats itself. Also, I love how Burns constantly shows how Americans forgot that people fighting to liberate their nation from foreign powers tend to keep fighting and in unconventional ways. You would think that Americans would identify that...

I doubt we would have seen sixteen years of Kennedys. The nation would have been better off for it, but (1) Kennedy fatigue would have set in at some point and (2) would Bobby have grown into his own and become the liberal scion of the 60's if he had his brother in the White House? I doubt it. It wouldn't have been politically feasible, imho.

[eCat]

"Mom, everyone thinks their kid is special, I'm putting pieces of special people in bags"

powerful line

[hedge]

Yes it was...

[eCat]

Yes on both counts. Peter Coyote is a great narrator. Not that it's any revelation that geopolitics is a dirty, duplicitous business fueled mostly by pure greed, but the whole business about France being over there for 100 years (and the same applies to the British Empire as well) pretty well puts the lie to the idea that western democracies are some idealistic force of goodness while communism is pure evil. My basic takeaway is that humans with political power are almost always bad or at the very least are going to assert that power for goals that are almost purely selfish and have nothing to do with the welfare of the people...

Yep. People fucking suck. Communism tends to suck more, but let's not act like the European colonial powers were doing shit due to noblis oblige.

Kennedy "approving" that coup 22 days before he died sealed Vietnam's fate. That was my biggest takeway from it so far

There's a great conversation between DIck Russell and LBJ where they talk about the coup. It's around 22 minutes long, and i'm sure you will hear parts of it in upcoming episodes. Everyone thought it was a damn mistake.

Side Note: i took a class on executive politics my senior year for my Poli Sci graduation paper. The whole class was based on LBJ because his presidency was so well documented with paperwork and recordings. You can go to the UVA's Miller Center's website to download thousands of hours of tapes. I had an mini video ipod that had a lot of LBJ's stuff on there. I would listen to it during car trips between SC and NC, especially when dad was first ill and driving 3-4 hours each way constantly. If you're a history geek, that stuff is fascinating.

Kennedy seemed like a pretty level-headed guy and it sounds like he genuinely regretted going along with that coup. He had a lot of other stuff on his plate, obviously, but they also said he clearly felt he had to keep the pressure on in Vietnam at least until the next election b/c he didn't think he'd get reelected if he looked soft on communism. But I got the sense that he wasn't all-in at all on the whole thing and actually thought it was an obvious loser long term, so I suspect he would've withdrawn after he'd gotten reelected. Really makes you wonder what America would look like today if he had served two terms, followed by 2 terms of Bobby...

Yeah. The Kennedy defenders/priests such as Sorenson and the like all swear JFK was going to get out of Vietnam (along with making Terry Sanford his VP in '64). I wonder if he would have been stuck as well with the idea of attaining the victory that was just one more surge away. I

t's funny how history repeats itself. Also, I love how Burns constantly shows how Americans forgot that people fighting to liberate their nation from foreign powers tend to keep fighting and in unconventional ways. You would think that Americans would identify that...

I doubt we would have seen sixteen years of Kennedys. The nation would have been better off for it, but (1) Kennedy fatigue would have set in at some point and (2) would Bobby have grown into his own and become the liberal scion of the 60's if he had his brother in the White House? I doubt it. It wouldn't have been politically feasible, imho.

I'm guessing tonight's episode is LBJ focused

[Jungle Rat]

I'm watching iCarly. By myself tonight.

[eCat]

I'm watching iCarly. By myself tonight.

the question is - is that your choice?

[hedge]

If he's by himself, who else's choice could it be?

[eCat]

If he's by himself, who else's choice could it be?

people that choose not to be there

[hedge]

I see...

[crashcourse]

those little gooks could sure move a lot of firepower over long distances and impossible terrain without too much notice and wreak havoc on undermanned US positions. Likewise we sure could annihilate a lot of gooks in a short period of time with air and artillery. rocketman should take notice

[hedge]

"I'm guessing tonight's episode is LBJ focused"

Very disturbing. Clearly LBJ had reservations (to say the least) about the whole thing. On one of the recordings, he said "What he hell am I sending these boys out there for?" And yet they continued to get sent, in ever increasing numbers. I am not scorning LBJ on this, I realize there were dozens of factors he had to consider, to say nothing of all the other major shit he had on his plate at the time, but it is, as I said, disturbing, to hear a president who is clearly ambivalent (at best) and, more frankly, clearly knows the whole operation is a fiasco, but who then goes right on ahead with it anyway. Again, not blaming LBJ for the whole thing, he obviously inherited a mess. But he clearly saw it as a mess and instead of moving to clean it up, he just continued to make it messier. I have to say I can sympathize with anyone who might say "You're using polite terms like "making a mess" when what you're really talking about is a deliberate decision to send teenagers to their deaths, not to mention all the women and children on the "enemy" side that got killed."

[aTm]

LOL, thats how it works. Almost every single cocksucker in politics will do the thing that's better for them or for their party over whats the right thing to do every time.